Travis Pahl wrote, in part:
> > And did Bush get reelected?
>
> No. Is that important? I thought we were talking about whether
> republicans sign gun control laws into law, not whether they get
> re-elected.
Yes. That was 15 years ago and there are different Republicans in office,
now.
> > Do you think a few Republicans learned something from it?
>
> yeah a few. But obviously not Robert, who voted for his son this last
> month who favored the assualt weapons ban and gives his support to
> many candidates who are in favor of gun control..
>
> > > > You want something more recent? How about this?
> > >
> > > Sure, how about George Bushs support for the renewal of the assualt
> > > weapon ban last year?
> >
> > Did it pass?
>
> No. And that is no thanks to GW Bush.
I wouldn't be too certain of that.
> > Did he put any pressure on the House to pass it? Look. If
> > you want to nitpick, you'll never find a politician you can support.
>
> I am not nitpicking. GW Bush is no where near my position on guns,
> spending, drug laws, taxation, foriegn policy. it is not nit picking,
> it is basic common sense. I am for limited government GW Bush and the
> republican congress continually vote for MORE government.
Given his record for 4 years, I'll bet that if Congress passed a repeal of
the 1986 law and allowed new machine guns to be registered, he'd sign it.
In fact, if Congress repealed the NFA, removing the tax on machine guns,
he'd probably sign it.
> > Bush
> > said during the campaign that he'd sign the bill if it got to his desk.
>
> In other words he is in favor of gun control. Am I picking nits? No.
> He is straight up telling us that he is in favor of gun control that
> even the majority of his party is opposed to.
He's in favor of *some* gun control. He also signed a Concealed Carry Law
in Texas and signed at least one improvement of it.
> > Any
> > blooming idiot that was conscious should have known from about Sept.
> 2000 on
> > that you stopped the renewal in the House. So, since Bush paid lip
> service
> > to renewing the AW Ban, you want to toss him overboard even though he
> > supported (and put some weight behind) getting the gun manufacturer
> > liability bill passed WITHOUT THE AW BAN!
>
> Yeah, crazy me, I am not willing to support a man that comes out in
> favor of something I find very important. What would Bush have to do
> to make you stop supporting him? Obviosuly saying things that you are
> opposed to (such as his stance on the AW ban) is not enough.
> Obviously his actions (such as his giant increases in spending the
> past 4 years) is not enough. Seriously what would the man have to do
> for you to oppose him? Kill your immediate family? Or would you come
> up with a defense for that as well?
Yeah, crazy you. You aren't willing to support a guy who has said that the
two justices most likely to vote to overturn a federal firearms law are his
model for supreme court justices. You aren't willing to support a guy who
is willing to give you some of the things you want because he said he'd sign
a law you disliked. Especially when you can work the separation of powers
to beat that one thing.
> > > Or how about the republican congress's doing absolutely nothing to
> > > elliminate any of the laws on the books.
> >
> > Hmmm. Like passing the Armed Pilots thing? Like passing the concealed
> > weapons for cops? Like TRYING to get the gun manufacturer liability
> bill?
> > Like the 1995 House passing a repeal of the AW Ban?
>
> OK, I will give you the armed pilots thing. the concealed weapons for
> cops is BS. We should not treat our citizens different from our
> police force. As for TRYING to pass things, that is exactly my
> point... Republicans even when they are in the majority can not get
> things passed because so many are in favor of gun control.
I partially agree with you on the cops thing. However, it's that
incrementalism thing again. Passing both of these issues got OUR camel's
nose under the anti-gun tent. A few years of experience with no trouble may
be enough to convince a few more "wobbly" Reps and Senators to vote our way
on the next step. Notice that not even Alaska went to Vermont carry in one
legislative session.
And as for your objection regarding "TRYING," I'm sorry, but a 51-49 (or
51-48-1) majority in the Senate is hardly enough of a majority to do
ANYTHING without significant help from the opposition.
> > > > Who publicly pushed for Craig's original bill? President Bush--who
> came
> > > out
> > > > and said he wanted a "clean bill" because the AW Ban was going to go
> > > nowhere
> > > > in the House. Who voted against it? John Kerry, who on March 2,
> cast
> > > his
> > > > first votes in the Senate for the year 2004 to vote for the killer
> > > > amendments and against the passage of the law.
> > >
> > > I never claimed the democrats were good on gun control. I tire of
> > > them being brought up when there is no dispute about them. The issue
> > > is the republicans. Are they good on gun control or not. It is
> > > pointless to do a comparison with someone we know is bad. What is
> > > important is are they good or not. do they support what we support?
> > > That is the question I am interested in.
> >
> > OK. Let's compare them to the LP. How many laws have LP politicians
> gotten
> > off the books? Oh, that's not fair! OK, how come when I get the
> candidate
> > surveys from the GOA (and I got on the list a long time ago, so I get
> them
> > for every state) 1/3 to half the libertarians either don't return their
> > surveys from the GOA or refuse to answer or answer worse than Rs and Ds
> in
> > their district!???
>
> I do not know. Do you have a source for this? Maybe in examing them
> I might see why.
You can look at "www.gunowners.org/votetb04.htm" but that's just the
congressional candidates. I was looking at the state races. Also, I was
guestimating and may have over guestimated--but not by a whole lot. I've
enclosed the Washington ratings as an attachment.
> > > The point I am making is that it is not so clear cut as you make it
> > > out to be. In fact more republicans support most all the gun control
> > > we have on the books. If you step back and look at this from a wider
> > > perspective, where you see the ideal (one gun law) and the opposite
> > > (total gun ban), and plot the democrats and republicans, there is very
> > > little difference. Now if you plot it looking only a very small
> > > portion of the big picture (for example a range from todays gun
> > > legislation minus a few laws and plus a few laws, then you might
> > > notice a slight tendency torwards republicans, but still the tendency
> > > would be that they fall on the side of more legislation.
> >
> > Right. And that's where the incrementalism comes in. Fifteen years
> ago,
> > you barely ran out of fingers counting the number of states with
> > Right-to-Carry laws. Now, if you count states without any sort of
> concealed
> > carry law, you only run out of fingers--on one hand--if you count DC.
> > Counting the may-issue states takes two hands. That process happened
> one
> > state at a time. In most states, it took place in stages. They did the
> > first part, discovered that it worked and wasn't something to be afraid
> of,
> > and then expanded it.
>
> Great. I am glad.
So, keep working on it in the other areas you care about.
--- Begin Message ---
Washington State Legislature General Election Survey Results
Gun Owners of America E-Mail/FAX Alert
8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151
Phone: 703-321-8585 / FAX: 703-321-8408
http://www.gunowners.org
November 06, 2000
1. Do you oppose "one-gun-a-month" laws that limit purchases of
firearms by law-abiding citizens?
2. Should state law prohibit localities from placing limitations on
the rights of citizens to purchase, possess, or carry firearms?
3. Would you oppose legislation mandating no-safety zones designed
to ban concealed carry for self-defense and forcing honest citizens
to be disarmed?
4. Would you oppose legislation that would require that firearms
purchased by private citizens be registered with law enforcement and
tracked by a centralized record system administered by government
agencies?
5. Do you oppose legislation banning the manufacture, sale or
possession of semi-automatic firearms?
6. Do you oppose legislation banning the manufacture, sale or
possession of large-capacity magazines?
7. Do you oppose laws that would take away the rights of 18-20
year-olds to possess a firearm?
8. Do you oppose laws which allow persons who are shot by a
properly-working firearm to sue firearms manufacturers and/or
firearms sellers (strict liability)?
9. Do you oppose laws which would ban the sale of a privately owned
firearm at a gun show unless it is reported and registered with
government bureaucrats?
10. Do you oppose government licensing to buy a gun?
11. Will you oppose computerized "instant" background check
legislation since it centrally registers gun sales and gun owners?
12. Do you oppose government mandated use of trigger locks or other
such hazardous "safety" devices which have the effect of making it
difficult, if not impossible, to have a gun available to defend your
home and family?
13. Would you oppose legislation that bans firearms ownership due to
simple misdemeanors, and therefore unfairly targets and victimizes
legal gun owners?
14. Would you support Vermont-style legislation which would
eliminate all requirements to pay fees and register gun owners and
simply allow law-abiding citizens to carry firearms openly or
concealed (at the individual's discretion) for any reason except for
the commission of a crime?
Key:
Y = Pro-gun answer
N = Anti-gun answer
NR = Did not respond to that particular question
Blank = Did not return survey; candidates were warned that failure
to respond would be treated as anti-gun
House Results
01 P1 O'BRIEN D
01 P1 MARRS R Y Y Y N Y Y Y Y N N N N Y N
01 P2 VANDERHOFF R
01 P2 EDWARDS D
02 P1 BUSH R
02 P1 BAUER D Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
02 P2 KRIZEK D
02 P2 CAMPBELL R
03 P1 WOOD D
03 P1 LESOFSKI R
03 P2 GOMBOSKY D
03 P2 PARKS R
04 P1 FORD-DUNCAN D
04 P1 CROUSE R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
04 P2 KALLAS D
04 P2 SCHINDLER R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y NR Y
05 P1 IRONS D
05 P1 ANDERSON R
05 P1 OTTO L
05 P2 PFLUG R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y NR Y Y Y
05 P2 BECHTOLD D
06 P1 NELSON D
06 P1 BENSON R Y Y Y Y Y Y NR Y Y Y N Y Y Y
06 P1 GULATI L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
06 P2 VARNER L Y Y Y Y Y N Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
06 P2 GERAGHTY D
06 P2 AHERN R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
07 P1 SUMP R
07 P1 MCCOY D
07 P2 MCMORRIS R
07 P2 MCKINNEY D Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
08 P1 HANKINS R
08 P2 DELVIN R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
08 P2 PRICE D
09 P1 COX R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y NR NR Y Y Y
09 P1 JOHNSON D
09 P2 GEARHART L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
09 P2 SCHOESLER R
10 P1 SEHLIN R
10 P1 ANDERSON D
10 P1 BRITTAIN L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
10 P2 MCCOY D
10 P2 BARLEAN R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
10 P2 RANDALL L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
11 P1 VAN BEEK R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y NR NR NR NR Y Y N
11 P1 CODY D
11 P2 ZWICKER R
11 P2 VELORIA D
12 P1 BALLARD R
12 P2 FORNER R
12 P2 ARMSTRONG R
12 P2 SMITH D Y Y Y Y NR Y Y Y Y Y Y N Y Y
13 P1 CHANDLER R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
13 P1 ANDERSON D
13 P2 MULLIKEN R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
13 P2 PEARSON D
14 P1 MORRISON D
14 P1 SKINNER R NR NR NR NR NR NR NR NR NR NR NR NR NR NR
14 P1 FRANKLIN C Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
14 P2 CLEMENTS R Y N Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
14 P2 LISOWSKI D
15 P1 CHANDLER R
15 P1 YALLUP D
15 P2 LISK R
15 P2 BRATEN D
16 P1 MASTIN R
16 P1 TROUT D
16 P2 GRANT D Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
16 P2 BLACKMAN A Y N Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
17 P1 DUGGER D
17 P1 LORANGER L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
17 P1 BOLDT R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
17 P2 HARRIS D
17 P2 DUNN R Y Y Y NR NR NR NR Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
18 P1 COTNER D
18 P1 MIELKE R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
18 P2 PENNINGTON R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
18 P2 FANT Rf Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
18 P2 ADAMS D
19 P1 HATFIELD D
19 P1 CAMENZIND R
19 P2 DOUMIT D
19 P2 ALEXY R
20 P1 PEREZ N Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
20 P1 DEBOLT R
20 P2 BROWN L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
20 P2 ALEXANDER R
21 P1 MERKLEY L Y N Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
21 P1 COOPER D
21 P1 MONLUX R
21 P2 BOHNKE L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
21 P2 DANIELS D
21 P2 RADCLIFF R
22 P1 WILSON R Y Y Y N Y Y Y Y N N N Y Y N
22 P1 AMOS L
22 P1 ROMERO D
22 P2 PILKEY R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
22 P2 HUNT D
23 P1 HAYNES L
23 P1 ROCKEFELLER D
23 P1 RASMUSSEN R Y Y NR Y Y Y Y Y NR Y Y Y Y N
23 P2 WOODS R
23 P2 HARRISON D
23 P2 HAYNES L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
24 P1 BUCK R
24 P1 SLATEN D
24 P2 KESSLER D
24 P2 SCHWIETHALE R
25 P1 HILDRETH D
25 P1 CASADA R Y Y Y Y N N Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
25 P2 THOMPSON D
25 P2 MORELL R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
26 P1 VANDERVELDE L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y NR Y Y Y
26 P1 LANTZ D
26 P1 BOSS R Y NR Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y NR Y Y NR
26 P2 JACKLEY D
26 P2 MCMAHAN R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
26 P2 CAIN R
27 P1 FISHER D
27 P2 DARNEILLE D
27 P2 STETSON R
28 P1 TALCOTT R
28 P2 CARRELL R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
28 P2 GREEN D
29 P1 CONWAY D
29 P2 KIRBY D
29 P2 NELSON R
30 P1 MILOSCIA D
30 P1 PIERSON R
30 P2 MITCHELL R
30 P2 MAINE D
31 P1 ROACH R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
31 P1 BINGHAM L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
31 P1 STENSEN D
31 P2 HURST D
31 P2 HAMMOND R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
32 P1 EDMONDS D
32 P2 HEALY L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
32 P2 KAGI D
33 P1 COOMER R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
33 P1 SCHUAL-BERKE D
33 P2 ROSS R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
33 P2 KEISER D
34 P1 POULSEN D
34 P1 KNUTSON L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
34 P2 MCDERMONT D
34 P2 UNGERLEIDER R
35 P1 DARE R Y N Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y NR NR
35 P1 HAIGH D
35 P1 LEWIS L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
35 P2 MITCHELL R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
35 P2 RALSTIN L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
35 P2 EICKMEYER D
36 P1 ROGERS L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
36 P1 SOMMERS D
36 P1 BLACK-FERGUSON N Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
36 P1 KLEIN R Y Y Y Y Y N Y Y Y Y Y Y N Y
36 P2 ZEEK L
36 P2 DICKERSON D
36 P2 LEWIS R
37 P1 BROWN R
37 P1 SANTOS D
37 P2 TOKUDA D
38 P1 REARDON D
38 P1 HUANG R
38 P1 BROCKWAY L
38 P2 LEMKE Rf Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
38 P2 GROSS L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
38 P2 SCOTT D
39 P1 KRISTIANSEN R Y Y Y NR NR NR NR Y Y Y Y NR NR NR
39 P1 DUNSHEE D
39 P1 DONAT L
39 P2 LAWNICZAK L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
39 P2 PEARSON R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y N Y Y Y
39 P2 LOOMIS D
40 P1 QUALL D
40 P1 LEIGH L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
40 P2 AYERS R Y Y NR Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y NR
40 P2 MANNING L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
41 P1 GRIGGS R
41 P2 MILLER L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
41 P2 BALLASIOTES R
42 P1 ERICKSEN R
42 P1 IMHOF D Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
42 P1 SPANOS L
42 P2 HANSEN L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
42 P2 LINVILLE D
42 P2 GUEVARA R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y N Y Y Y
43 P1 MURRAY D
43 P2 CHOPP D
44 P1 SCHMIDT R
44 P1 WATKINS D Y Y Y Y N Y Y Y N Y N Y Y N
44 P2 ENDICOTT R
44 P2 BROCKSMITH L
44 P2 LOVICK D
45 P1 GOETSCH D
45 P1 LAMBERT R
45 P2 RUDERMAN D
45 P2 NIXON R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
46 P1 MCINTIRE D
46 P1 SAMPLE L N N N N N Y N Y NR Y Y Y Y Y
46 P1 O'GRADY N
46 P2 KENNEY D
46 P2 GROVE R
47 P1 SIMPSON D
47 P1 FORTUNATO R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
47 P2 JACOBSON D
47 P2 CAIRNES R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
48 P1 ESSER R
48 P1 JOHNSON D
48 P2 MARCHIORO D
48 P2 GALLEGOS L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
48 P2 VAN LUVEN R
49 P1 FROMHOLD D
49 P1 COURSER R
49 P2 SCHMIDT R Y N Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
49 P2 OGDEN D
Senate Results
01 VAN HOLLEBEKE R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
01 MCAULIFFE D
02 HAWKINS R
02 RASMUSSEN D
03 BROWN D
04 MCCASLIN R
04 PECK D
04 CHASE L
05 UNDERWOOD D
05 ROSSI R
09 SHEAHAN R
09 KEENEY L
10 CAREY L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
10 HAUGEN D
10 SMITH R
11 PRENTICE D
12 PARLETTE R
14 DECCIO R
14 VANDERWOOD D
16 HEWITT R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y NR NR Y Y
16 LOVELAND D
17 BENTON R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
17 PETERSON D
18 ZARELLI R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
18 LANDERHOLM D
19 SCHUMACHER R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
19 SNYDER D
20 SWECKER R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y NR Y Y NR
20 KAFFEL N NR NR NR NR NR NR NR NR NR NR NR NR NR NR
20 BEATTIE D
22 FRASER D
22 BROOKS L
23 SHELDON D
23 MURPHY R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y NR Y Y Y
23 HOLMAN L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
24 HARGROVE D
24 WOLPER L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
25 CHRISTENSEN L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
25 KASTAMA D
25 MCDONALD R
27 REGALA D
28 WINSLEY R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y NR NR NR Y
28 LOWRY D Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
34 CONSTANTINE D
34 BRADLEY R
39 CHASE L
39 SMITH D
39 STEVENS R Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
40 SPANEL D
40 BANNERMAN L Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
40 FERRIER R N Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y Y
41 HORN R
49 GASSAWAY D Y Y NR Y Y NR Y Y NR Y N Y Y Y
49 CARLSON R Y N NR NR NR NR NR Y NR NR NR NR Y N
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