--- Comment #8 from Bernd Wechner <> ---
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #7)
> Yes we have data on the usage. Like ~30% of users access it from the toolbar
> and > 60% access it from the menu, and < 10% of users assign a shortcut for
> it. If we compare how often users insert a formula to inserting an image in
> writer, it is 4%. If we compare how often a user opens the insert menu in
> calc to insert a formula to inserting a row, it is 0.06%.

Awesome! I'm very pleased to hear it. Is that collected from running instances
of LibreOffice? I imagine but don't recall, clicking through a permission form
for such. Am curious because voluntary introduces a bias albeit of unknown
relevance, and I digress (simply because I want to see such usage data
collection in software we produce here and there are a few technical and
ethical issues the team has explored (no action yet).

> I wouldnt call it hidden because it is in a submenu of the insert menu, as
> inserting an image use to be Insert > Picture > From File. Writer is a
> general purpose word processor, so we cant promote technical writer features
> and demote general purpose features. I wouldnt have minded to include it in
> insert menu, but we have to put limits on how large menus can grow.

Oh, don't misunderstand my suggestion. It is not one (merely) of ergonomics, as
these are easy fixed with Customization anyhow, nor is it personal (as I have
indeed fixed the ergonomics to suit me with customization), but catalyzed by a 
recent reinstall and hence reconfig, a desire to share a vision, that math is
not distinctly different to images or text boxes say and yet is hidden under
some sub category akin strange things like embedded spreadsheets or whatever
else). It's a pitch for giving it equal standing to put it in new users faces
when exploring, to make the product more explicitly inviting for technical

> Glad to hear that LibreOffice is better than MSO in this regards, but I dont
> believe formulas will ever become an every day part of a document.

Well that depend son the field you work in. For many it is an every day part of
documents, or perhaps more to the point would be if more clearly an ordinary
thing in the hierarchy, and perhaps a little less glitchy - I use in-line math
symbols at times (of course only when I can't easily replicate it with
character styling - which happens for terms like {grave X}_n^2 to cut an
abstract example) and horizontal alignment is tuning drama. That said it is
kick-ass awesome that it's not harder or impossible and is in fact pretty

> It was popular enough as a feature that i added it as a hidden button and
> once available space is there, i have plans to unhide it. Hopefully that may
> happen in LibreOffice 5.3.

Awesome. As I said, I'm mainly about putting it on a par with similar things in
the UX space (disregarding the implementation details of embedding).

(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #6)
> Probably WONTFIX rather than a WFM, yet for a heavy Formula user--activating
> the Formula button on the Standard toolbar (and repositioning it if a
> preferred customization) seems the most that is needed.

As a curio, not an accusation I'm curious if your adjusting status in that
regard reflects a decision of the design team. If so, very pleased at the rapid
turnaround (kudos) and if not (or even if so) am curious what the decisions
making process is that drives LibreOffice. An aside of course and happy for PM
on it, or a link to info I can read.

> My concern remains that using the Insert Formula to directly embed OLE is a
> horrible way to compose technical texts.

With all due respect that's a question of personal preference. I have a
different view and experience having written technical documents for decades,
and have known plenty who share that experience and plenty who disagree ...
even some who still prefer hand written and love tablets for that (though they
don't publish like that) or swear by some other product ... 

> Would also add that for those that prefer LaTex, the TexMaths extension
> provides a much better interface than the StartMath based Math module but
> rather than ODF Formula produces SVG or PNG rendering using simple one line
> LaTex markup or inline LaTex (bracketed with \begin \end--along with some
> management of formulas within an ODF Text, Presentation or Drawing archive. 
> Worth a look if your interest lies in that direction. [1,2]

Interesting indeed. Hadn't seen TexMaths. Not immediately appealing on a first
trial, but could come in hand if I really want to align on = in a block of
related equations.

Given it's a WONTFIX (assuming that is a design team decision not a proposal
awaiting such) I'll let it rest of course. But in closing will suggest that one
of my visions is to see math as integrated a German. The analogy I find robust
and speak to my personal experience. If I'm writing a text and citing German
passages or providing German names or titles, I invariably have to stop and
find how to enter the odd special char like ΓΌ perhaps but the world of software
has literally come so far that I can dip into and out of it, or French or even
Chinese with a little more effort and it's all seen and treated as part of the
text. So too, math (in the vision). 

And my interest was spurred to file only because I felt LibreOffice has indeed
come tantalizingly close to that. A tad glitchy still, but surprisingly little!
Very pleasingly and surprisingly so. Kudos to the team behind it.

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