On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:04 AM Ali Reza Hayati <[1][email protected]>
wrote:
On 26/03/2021 18:19, Deb Nicholson wrote:
> An interesting thing about men who harass women is that they
usually
> don't do it to men. Men who let the community know that they
"don't
> believe in harassment" are the last people to find out it's
happening,
> because no one feels safe telling them.
I believe in harassment and I do stand against any person who harass
people, no matter they're women or men. But someone's feelings being
hurt is not harassment.
For example, and only example, asking someone out or calling someone
by
wrong pronouns may hurt person's feelings but that's no harassment.
Or,
telling a person who is a woman that she's not as useful as some
other
person who is a man is not sexism.
Again, I'm not accusing you of lying, I just don't know the whole
story
so I can't make decision.
Since 2019, I've seen stories and articles that accuse RMS of
harassment
and assault which when I read carefully, I see only
misunderstandings.
What is happening now, specially that so-called open letter is based
on
misunderstandings and some lies, not truth. I oppose that.
Again, sorry for your experience.
> Hundreds of people have been driven away for free software for
many,
> many years. Women have stories of his behavior going back to
MIT. A few
> of those women are still in tech and could've been
contributing to free
> software for the last 30 years. We lose women and people who
won't
> stand for the harassment of women all the time.
This may be a political issue. I stand with women who are harassed,
but
I don't believe all women. I believe proof, not words. I don't
accuse
anybody of lying, I only can't stand somewhere when I'm not
presented
with any proof.
> I'm sorry that you are unwilling to believe the women who have
worked
> closely with RMS in the FSF office or on the GNU project. Or
the women
> he has interacted with at tech conferences or sci-fi
conferences. Or
> the women he has mistreated at MIT.
> I hope that you will consider that all of us would rather be
doing
> something else with our time and the only reason to speak up
is because
> we care about the future of free software.
> Best,
> Deb
I'm willing to believe any proof, so far, there haven't been any
proof.
Sorry you see me like this, I just can't decide where to stand
without
being presented by any proof. I understand that may hurt people, but
I'm
not willing to hurt others because I heard stories.
Well, unless women start recording every social interaction they have
all the time, then I think you aren't ever going to get the "proof" you
are waiting for. I'm not a huge fan of normalizing constant
surveillance in every social situation, so I think we are going to
continue to disagree on what constitutes "enough proof" of harassment
in person. I don't believe that over 100 women would make up a story
about being harassed by the same person, especially when it matches
what I've personally witnessed and especially when it is a pretty
thankless claim to make.
I can tell you there is plenty of proof of gendered harassment on the
GNU mailing list, but RMS has chosen to keep that list private.
Sincerely,
Deb
>
> On March 26, 2021 1:18:13 PM UTC, Deb Nicholson
> <[2][2][email protected]> wrote:
> >Hi,
> >I'm a former FSF staff person and a former GNU maintainer
who has
> left most
> >of the FSF & GNU mailing lists that I was on because of the
> extremely
> >toxic, harassment-filled environments on those lists. I
stayed on
> the
> >LibrePlanet list because it's usually ok and I appreciate
seeing
> the
> >occasional campaign messages and actions to take in support
of free
> >software.
> >
> >RMS inspires a toxic, sexist and unrepentant culture. I'm
one of
> the people
> >who has asked him -- many times -- to take a strong stance
against
> sexism
> >in GNU, to stop treating women as second-class citizens,
and to
> re-consider
> >his utterly clueless and disrespectful treatment of
transgender
> people in
> >our communities.
> >
> >I want free software to win. I want everyone to be able to
choose
> free
> >software for everything. There is no way for free software
to win
> if
> >hundreds of previously interested people are leaving after
they get
> sick of
> >the hateful, sexist and intolerant parts of our
communities. People
> take
> >their cue from RMS and he has demonstrated over and over
again that
> he is
> >not interested in removing intolerance. If we want a
movement that
> grows,
> >instead of a quirky and toxic private club, then RMS
shouldn't
> lead.
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >Deb Nicholson
> >
> >On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 8:31 AM Ali Reza Hayati
> <[3][3][email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello Danny.
> >>
> >> I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt but I don't see
anything
> wrong
> >> here. Dark humor is everywhere and many people like it.
I've seen
> gay
> >> people liking dark humor about gays for example. As I
said, after
> all,
> >> that's just jokes and humor.
> >>
> >> About being offended, again that's not a problem with
RMS. Maybe
> he
> >> hasn't be nice to you or people you know but if you want
a nice
> person
> >> to lead a foundation, you may need a kid, not a grown up
person.
> Every
> >> person may upset you or others in some way. I've upset
many
> people in my
> >> life without any intention, to that I apologize to them.
> >>
> >> If you believe RMS is not a good person, that's your
opinion and
> >> respectable. If you don't think RMS is a good leader,
that's
> again
> >> respectable and may even be a fair point if presented
well.
> >>
> >> However, that's not where RMS opposers stand today. What
you've
> signed
> >> is based on false accusations and lies. When it comes to
> defending
> >> truth, that statement/letter is completely false.
> >>
> >> I still urge people to support RMS in this matter because
> defending
> >> truth is important.
> >>
> >> Again, I'm sorry that your feelings have been hurt but
that's
> just your
> >> personal conflict/disappointment.
> >>
> >> On 26/03/2021 09:06, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> >> > I am having a difficult time right now. This person
Georgia
> shares
> >> > several years of experience working at FSF and directly
with
> RMS. Ali,
> >> > their testimony makes me think that maybe the free
software
> movement
> >> > needs to move beyond RMS. Here are their words, copied
from
> >> >
[4][4]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
> >> >
>
<[5][5]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232>:
> >> > “I worked at the FSF from 2015-2018 & was shop steward
for a
> while. I
> >> > recall having a months (MONTHS) long conversation with
ED John
> Sullivan
> >> > about why racist & sexist 'hacker humor' from the 90s
needed to
> be
> >> > removed from [6][6]gnu.org <[7][7]http://gnu.org>. rms
didn't get why
> it was
> >> harmful.
> >> >
> >> > Also the abortion joke ('contributed' by rms) in a
technical
> manual? He
> >> > threw a fit when it was removed, & the energy many
people (who
> respected
> >> > him!!) put in to attempting to educate him in why that
wasn't
> cool.
> >> >
> >> > The thing that randos who have never had to actually
work with
> rms don't
> >> > understand is that MANY people who deeply respected him
tried
> to help
> >> > him learn to not objectify women, shout over others at
> Libreplanet as if
> >> > it was his birthday party, stop shit like 'emacs
virgins'
> >> >
> >> > Meanwhile that energy, utterly wasted, could've been
spent
> advocating
> >> > for free to software and building the inclusive,
impractical
> community
> >> > so many people WANT. Spent, instead, on a man's ego,
over and
> over.
> >> >
> >> > This whole thing is incredibly depressing. The free
software
> community
> >> > is largely full of interesting, rad people - I got to
work with
> a bunch
> >> > of people I like & respect & feel inspired by,
organizing
> Libreplanet
> >> > was my job & introduced me to amazing people from
across the
> world
> >> >
> >> > free software has the ability to do so much good, but
there's
> an ugly
> >> > cult of personality around rms, & the fact that he
faced
> consequences
> >> > for his creepy Epdtein-adjacent comments and not the
decades of
> shitty
> >> > behavior towards women is infuriating & excuses his
return
> >> >
> >> > It's easy for people to dismiss shitty words, & because
we
> don't focus
> >> > on shitty actions (& actions are easily dismissed by
assholes
> sealioning
> >> > for 'evidence' - bc "I saw it/experienced it" is NEVER
enough)
> it's
> >> > possible for a floundering FSF to 'uncancel' rms now.
DON'T LET
> THEM
> >> >
> >> > My github account was, uh, dusty, to say the least, but
I made
> a pull
> >> > request in order to sign on to this letter.
> >> > [8][8]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
> <[9][9]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/>
> >> >
> >> > One final thing: do not shit on FSF staff about this.
They
> didn't ask
> >> > for this, they weren't notified in advance of rms'
apparently
> impromptu
> >> > announcement, they labor for the organization and for
the
> community
> >> > every day. Put pressure on the board and the executive
> director.”
> >> >
> >> > The letter is signed by 40 organizations and over 500
> individuals,
> >> > including dozens of former FSF staff and board members.
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 6:04 PM Ali Reza Hayati
> <[10][10][email protected]
> >> > <mailto:[11][11][email protected]>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Recently, RMS announced that he's back on FSF board
of
> directors.
> >> Now,
> >> > some organizations and people are attacking FSF and
RMS and
> are
> >> asking
> >> > them to resign.
> >> >
> >> > Since the accusations are false, we're asking FSF
to resist
> this
> >> > pressure and continue work for the good of the
software
> libre
> >> movement.
> >> >
> >> > Sending message to [12][12][email protected]
> <mailto:[13][13][email protected]> is a way of
> >> > showing your support. They
> >> > are acting like mobs and bullies, we should not
step down
> from our
> >> > principals, which are fighting for justice and
truth.
> >> >
> >> > On 26/03/2021 04:49, Danny Spitzberg wrote:
> >> > > I’m not clear on why I should send a message of
support
> for RMS.
> >> > >
> >> > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 4:57 PM Ali Reza Hayati
> >> > <[14][14][email protected]
<mailto:[15][15][email protected]>
> >> > > <mailto:[16][16][email protected]
> <mailto:[17][17][email protected]>>> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > People,
> >> > >
> >> > > FSF board has received lots of messages
today and
> there's no
> >> > need to
> >> > > add
> >> > > to the pile. Please send your support for
RMS to
> [18][18][email protected]
> >> > <mailto:[19][19][email protected]>
> >> > > <mailto:[20][20][email protected]
<mailto:[21][21][email protected]>>
> and ask
> >> > > them to resist pressures and stay with us.
> >> > >
> >> > > Software libre is a matter of justice. If we
can
> learn one
> >> > thing from
> >> > > the whole movement is to keep our principals
and
> fight for
> >> > justice. FSF
> >> > > made a mistake back in 2019 and that was not
to
> defend RMS
> >> > against
> >> > > false
> >> > > accusations. Today, we can make that right
by
> supporting a
> >> > wonderful
> >> > > honorable man.
> >> > >
> >> > > Show your support by sending messages to
> [22][22][email protected]
> >> > <mailto:[23][23][email protected]>
> >> > > <mailto:[24][24][email protected]
<mailto:[25][25][email protected]>>.
> Do it now, later
> >> > > may be late.
> >> > >
> >> > > Best.
> >> > > --
> >> > > Ali Reza Hayati
([26][26]https://alirezahayati.com
> >> > <[27][27]https://alirezahayati.com>
> <[28][28]https://alirezahayati.com
> >> > <[29][29]https://alirezahayati.com>>)
> >> > > Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
> >> > > PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925
75A3
> C354
> >> > >
> >> > >
_______________________________________________
> >> > > libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> >> > > [30][30][email protected]
> >> >
<mailto:[31][31][email protected]>
> >> > >
<mailto:[32][32][email protected]
> >> >
<mailto:[33][33][email protected]>>
> >> > >
> >> >
>
[34][34]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-d
iscu
> ss
> >> >
>
<[35][35]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-
disc
> uss>
> >> > >
> >> > <
> >>
>
[36][36]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-d
iscu
> ss <
> >>
>
[37][37]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-d
iscu
> ss>>
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Ali Reza Hayati ([38][38]https://alirezahayati.com
<
> >> [39][39]https://alirezahayati.com>)
> >> > Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
> >> > PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3
C354
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ali Reza Hayati ([40][40]https://alirezahayati.com)
> >> Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
> >> PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> >> [41][41][email protected]
> >>
>
[42][42]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-d
iscu
> ss
> --
> Ali Reza Hayati ([43][43]https://alirezahayati.com)
> Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
> PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:[44][email protected]
> 2. mailto:[45][email protected]
> 3. mailto:[46][email protected]
> 4.
[47]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
> 5.
[48]https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
> 6. [49]http://gnu.org/
> 7. [50]http://gnu.org/
> 8. [51]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
> 9. [52]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
> 10. mailto:[53][email protected]
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> 29. [72]https://alirezahayati.com/
> 30. mailto:[73][email protected]
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> 32. mailto:[75][email protected]
> 33. mailto:[76][email protected]
> 34.
[77]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
ss
> 35.
[78]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
ss
> 36.
[79]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
ss
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[80]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
ss
> 38. [81]https://alirezahayati.com/
> 39. [82]https://alirezahayati.com/
> 40. [83]https://alirezahayati.com/
> 41. mailto:[84][email protected]
> 42.
[85]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
ss
> 43. [86]https://alirezahayati.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> libreplanet-discuss mailing list
> [87][email protected]
>
[88]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
ss
>
--
Ali Reza Hayati ([89]https://alirezahayati.com)
Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
PGP: B7DC C419 C0ED 05D5 6535 1BD3 2A7F A925 75A3 C354
References
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2. mailto:[email protected]
3. mailto:[email protected]
4. https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
5. https://twitter.com/georgialyle/status/1374504389155508232
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34. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
35. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-disc
36. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
37. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu
38. https://alirezahayati.com/
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80. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
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89. https://alirezahayati.com/
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