On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Naftoli Gugenheim <naftoli...@gmail.com>wrote:
> I think that Jonathan was impolite in expressing his frustration at being > misunderstood. > First, don't you think that it's ironic that someone who was trying to teach us about marketing was so incapable of expressing himself effectively? Would you take the marketing advice of someone who cannot communicate basic concepts without resorting to belittling and screaming? What you don't know is that Jonathan made some posting that were more troll-like that I did not approve (something that's very rare) because they were just rants about us not understanding what he was saying (including quotes like "Lift is just the flavor of the month"). Some other things you don't know is that Jonathan contacted me privately... something I generally frown on (see http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb/browse_thread/thread/c7a97cbf60780f0 ) He suggested that I read some books by Geoffrey Moore<http://mdv.com/team_bio.html?id=11>and some books about not letting MBAs fleece you. He also offered to help with marketing by offering his email address and no other information about who he was or why his help would be of value. Hmmm.... another example of not effective marketing. (and yes, I did search for him via Google and LinkedIn to see if he was some hot shot who was used to talking in short-hand... but he was no where to be found.) I suggested that he check out who I run with and asked him to tell me why he would help with marketing Lift. His response was that he Googled me and was unable to find any information about me on Google, that I was not nearly as good at communications as I thought and that I should include information (a mini-CV in his words) on the Lift site. So, let's work through this. First, there are a couple of links in my sig-line. The first one is to Apress's listing for my book: http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890 This page includes information about the author: David Pollak David Pollak has been writing commercial software since 1977. He wrote the award–winning Mesa spreadsheet, which in 1992 was the first real–time spreadsheet. Wall Street companies traded billions of dollars a day through Mesa. In 1996, David sold his company to CMP Media and became CTO of CMP Media’s NetGuide Live and was one of the first large–scale users of Java and WebLogic to power an Internet site. In 1998, David released Integer, the world’s first browser–accessible, multiuser spreadsheet. Since 2000, David has been consulting for companies including Hewlett–Packard, Pretzel Logic/WebGain, BankServ, Twitter, and SAP. David has been using Scala since 2006 and is the lead developer of the Lift Web Framework. There's also a link to my Twitter feed <http://twitter.com/dpp> which contains a link to my blog <http://blog.lostlake.org/>. Now, let's take a look at the Lift <http://liftweb.net> web site. On the front page is a mini-bio: David Pollak has been writing commercial software since 1977. He wrote the first real-time spreadsheet and the worlds highest performance spreadsheet engine. Since 1996, David has been using and devising web development tools. So, even without searching, one can find a fair amount about me. But, let's click through to the Team page on the Lift site. There's a slightly longer bio: David Pollak has been writing commercial software since 1977. He wrote the first real-time spreadsheet and the worlds highest performance spreadsheet engine. Since 1996, David has been using and devising web development tools. As CTO of CMP Media, David oversaw the first large-scale deployment of WebLogic. David was CTO and VPE at Cenzic, a web application security company. David has also developed numerous commercial projects in Ruby on Rails. In 2007, David founded the Lift Web Framework open source project. If you spend a little time with some of the other team bios, one in particular will seem out of place... a "suit". Specifically, Debby Meredith's bio reads: I'm a currently an engineering management consultant and a venture partner at JAFCO Ventures. I work hands-on with company founders, helping to assemble world class teams, architect software products and roadmaps, and establish operational processes to build success from the beginning. Previously, I was a venture partner at Mohr Davidow Ventures, VP Eng at Netscape, VP Eng at Collabra Software, VP Eng at Slate Software, and had key technical positions at Metaphor Computer Systems, Logitech, and Bell Laboratories. So, we've got someone who is a venture partner at JAFCO (a VC firm) who used to be with MDV (another VC firm) who is a Lift committer. Now, let me connect a couple of dots. Geoffrey Moore is a venture partner at MDV where Debby used to be a Venture partner. MDV also funded Cenzic. What do you think the chances are that I've at least heard of Crossing the Chasm? What are the chances I've read Crossing the Chasm? What are the chances that I've spent more than 1 day with a management team and Geoffrey Moore doing marketing strategy? (In case you're wondering, I read the book back in the mid 90s and while at Cenzic did a couple of sessions with Geoffrey, and yes, he is everything he's cracked up to be.) Okay. Let's poke around the Lift web site and look at the Lift 1.0 press release <http://liftweb.net/10_release.html>. Now, this one is a little more work, but look at the guy who did the Lift press release, Kurt Foeller<http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=kurt+foeller>. One of the quotes from Kurt's LinkedIn page (the first item that comes up on the Google search for Kurt): Have served clients in consumer goods, as well as all major categories of computer technology including software, consumer internet services, hardware, semiconductors, telecom, wireless and consumer Internet. Largest PR successes include Tibco, WebLogic (BEA), Network Appliance, Microsoft. Hmmm... WebLogic... wasn't it listed in my bio that I oversaw the first large-scale WebLogic deployment. Is there a connection? Turns out that Kurt was the PR guy for WebLogic from the first day they had a PR agency (chosen by Regis McKenna <http://www.regis.com/>, btw) until the day that BEA acquired WebLogic. Kurt also did PR for me at Athena Design. He helps out with PR and marketing strategy because we have an excellent relationship. So, yeah, I've got a marketing person or two (well, four, but who's counting) that I work with from time to time in terms of long-term Lift marketing strategy. Now, if we go back to my Twitter feed, you'll see that I have conversations with, among other people, @rbpasker <http://twitter.com/rbpasker>. Let's look at his Twitter bio: Bio CTO-in-Residence at Azure Capital Partners. founder/chief architect WebLogic Hmmm... interesting... a VC and WebLogic connection. So, with a single Google search and reading my Twitter feed, my bios from the Lift web site, the Lift team site and the Lift 1.0 press release, we've discovered that I'm run with some pretty seasoned folks. Now, let's see what happens when we try to Google me. Here are the queries. I ran them from an anonymous browser so that they are not biased by my search history. You may get slightly different ordering depending on your location, but you should see what I see as #1 generally above the fold if you are in an English-speaking country. So: David Pollak<http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=david+pollak>: Well, golly gosh... my blog comes up first. Then the sports reporter for the San Jose Mercury. Then a linebacker for the Bengals. Then the recent Geek Talk interview of me. So, let's see what The Geek Talk has to say about me: A dad. A geek by birth. A lawyer by training. I’ve been doing software for pay since 1977 starting on the Apple ][, fell in love with NextStep, then Java, then Ruby/Rails and finally Scala. Yeah, okay, that's me. Note it also says "Lawyer by training." So, do you really think that offering a guy who hangs with a bunch of venture partners and was trained as a lawyer really needs a book on not getting fleeced by MBAs? Let's look for my resume: David Pollak Resume<http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=david+pollak+resume>: Oh, look, the first thing that comes up is https://www.lostlake.org Hmmm... it's got an old business card that even says "Feeder of the Bears" on it. It's got a link to an out of date resume and a link to a little video. So, what Jonathan could have learned from my resume is that I received my JD (law degree) from Boston University, that I've sold software to some of the biggest MBA-laden companies on the planet, that I've done business development deals with the likes of IBM, Apple, etc. He could have learned that I have founded start-ups, received venture funding, and sold start-ups. One might also watch the video on the page and ask why 1990s powerhouse software companies would have their lead architects and CEOs in the same video as me. You might ask how I wound up as the only commercial ISV on stage at the Java 2 launch when the likes of WebLogic, Kiva, etc. were competing with me. You might start thinking, "Hmmm... does dpp have some marketing strategy skills?" So, with the investment of an hours or two via a couple of Google searches and reading through some of the existing web site, a person with solid marketing skills would have (1) understood how to approach me and the community (2) that we're not a bunch of tech-weenie with our head where the sun don't shine regarding marketing (3) had a plan to learn about the project's goals and (4) had a plan for selling himself to the project. Is it too much to expect that someone invest an hour or two learning about the players in a project before offering his services to the project? Is it too much to expect that someone who is preaching marketing and message get their's right? On the other hand, "here little tech weenie, here are some books about marketing and how not to get snookered by MBAs... and oh by the way, I'm not going to tell you anything about myself, but you should be glad that I'm willing to offer my services to you," is not the right approach. Further, when prompted to do a little research and give me more information, the wrong answer is to lecture me about my failures to communicate properly and my arrogance. Put another way, my time is very valuable. I am very selective about the folks I form long term working relationships with (and you can see that my working relationships span decades). The Lift committers are a very good cross-section of the kind of geeks I choose to work with. Each of them is more than 2 standard deviations out in terms of technical skills. Lots of people ask me for my time (and most offer money with the request), but time is my most limited resource and I choose to spend it with people who are both excellent at what they do and nice. Each and every one of the Lift committers has met this criteria. If a person wants to work on the Lift committer team (whether that be technical, cat herding, marketing, evangelism, etc.), that person has to sell me and the community on their excellence and their fit with the community. Most of the committers have sold themselves by helping others on the list and offering up useful code. There is nothing in what Jonathan has said or done either on-list or off that demonstrates either quality. But are his points not valuable? > No. They are not. He has not spent the time to learn about Lift, the Lift/Scala eco-system, who the players are, what their histories are, and what their goals are. Even the likes of Geoffrey Moore ask a whole lot of questions before making a single statement. Further, points can only be valuable when set against goals. > > ------------------------------------- > David Pollak<feeder.of.the.be...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Jonathan, your comments are someplace between not helpful and troll-like. > It'd be best if you did not continue to participate in this thread. > > On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 5:36 AM, jonathan mawson <umpti...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > If there's no rational reason to use Lift, then perhaps you could find > > another community to spend your time in. > > > > > > I didn't say that there was no rational reason to use Lift BUT THAT YOU > ARE > > FAILING TO COMMUNICATE WHAT THAT REASON MIGHT BE TO POTENTIAL USERS! You > > can't expect potential users to be Internet mind readers. Which is what > > your > > current strategy amounts to - other than "People will try Lift because > > there > > is a buzz about Scala." > > > > > > > > > Lift is not a clone of any framework. It's different and there are > > > reasons for those differences. If you don't like them, please use what > > > you like best. Use what feels most comfortable for you. Use what > works > > > best for you. > > > > > > > I very carefully did NOT say that Lift should be a clone. I did say that, > > when you ask users to do things contrary to their expectations of a > modern > > web framework, you tell them WHY you are asking them to do that and what > > the > > payoff will be for them. I'd talk them through these "surprises" with a > > series of short snippets in boxes - I'd also use these snippets for any > > "gotchas" like those critical spaces after the "/". I might start with: > > > > Working through this tutorial you'll encounter a horrible surprise - Lift > > is > > not YARC! (Yet Another Rails Clone.) That is because we have designed > Lift > > to be a fundamentally different creature to Rails. Rails is an excellent > > framework whose first priority is ease of use for simple jobs where > server > > efficiency can be traded away to get a site running quickly with minimum > > effort. Lift is a framework designed for jobs where Rails has run out. A > > well designed Lift site can handle up to 20 times the traffic of an > > equivalent Rails site on the same server. And while it perhaps isn't as > > easy > > to do simple things in Lift as in Rails, it is much easier to do most of > > the > > hard ones. In a way, both frameworks carry their philosophy in their > names > > - > > > > - Rails expects you, the programmer, to be happy to run on a relatively > > pre-determined track in return for a simpler life. > > > > - Lift, like its host language Scala, is designed for HEAVY LIFTING. Its > > priorities are delivering security, maintainability and performance over > > the > > widest possible range of applications. It makes obtaining these good > things > > as simple as possible, but occasionally you just have to eat your greens > if > > you want to grow up big and strong. > > > > Those are the rationales behind the design choices we made. Creating your > > first toy site with Lift will take longer than with Rails, but creating > > your > > first secure, scalable site will take less time. Whenever Lift wants you > to > > do something particularly surprising in this tutorial you'll see another > > box > > explaining why and what the pay-off will be for you. You'll also see > boxes > > warning you of any fiddly 'gotchas'. Happy Lifting! > > > > Lightly adapted that might work as an intro for Lift in general. It > > *differentiates* you from Rails and gives potential users the info they > > need > > to decide whether or nor Lift is right for them to try, which is what > > technical marketing should be about. (It also obeys the "tell them three > > times" rule of Writing Stuff You Really Want People To Remember.") > > > > Oh - and I have now seen the Lift logo, and I think it looks fine! > > > > -- > > View this message in context: > > > http://old.nabble.com/superficial-first-impressions-from-a-rails-junkie-tp27802055p27811402.html > > Sent from the liftweb mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Lift" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lift...@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<liftweb%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > <liftweb%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com<liftweb%252bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en. > > > > > > > -- > Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net > Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890 > Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp > Surf the harmonics > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lift" group. > To post to this group, send email to lift...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<liftweb%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lift" group. > To post to this group, send email to lift...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > liftweb+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<liftweb%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb?hl=en. > > -- Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890 Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp Surf the harmonics -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lift" group. 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