On 9 Feb 99, at 12:49, Bruce Dalton wrote:
> Boone
> >Well, I'd really like for you to prove me wrong -- for some reason, I
> >just feel that we can't "copy" a human. Since I'm fairly new here,
> >forgive me if I'm just dumb. :-) Anyway, best wishes to all of you
> >(cloned or not).
>
> The reason it *seems wrong* to you is because it is wrong. We are talking
> about science fiction here. As I've been trying to point out it is
> technically impossible to copy a body.
It may be techincally impossible to copy a body in terms of current knowledge but the
point of this discussion is that it is a thought experiment designed to throw light on
our
undestanding of the MOQ.
One thing that we all seem to have agreed on so far is that *I* am not defined purely
by
the Inorganic/Biological patterns of DNA. This must be a first for the LS :)
Having established that and with 3 weeks left to run the discussion turned, quite
naturally,
to what *I* am in terms of the MOQ. Using the teleportation scenario is (IMO) an
excellent
device for this purpose.
> And we all take it all in. After all science has done so many
> wonderful things that no doubt *one day soon* they will discover how to
> separate our minds from our bodies. But there is doubt about it, lot's of
> doubt.
Just as there should be. Personally I think it is ridiculous to say that non-physical
patterns
exist or can exist in complete isolation from physical patterns and have been saying
so for
some time. This is not to say that non-physical patterns can be described in terms of
physical patterns or that non-physical patterns are contained by physical patterns,
but
that non-physical patterns do have a relationship to physical patterns.
This is entirely consistent with the MOQ which describes a system based upon Inorganic
Patterns of Value as the underlying foundation of all other static patterns of value.
I may
be at odds with many in the Squad when I say that Inorganic PoV's are the only
'physical'
patterns that exist. All the other levels are non-physical. Biological patterns are
not DNA
but emerge from DNA due to the massively complex Inorganic patterns of DNA.
Pirsig describes DNA as an interface between biological patterns of life and the
molecular
patterns of organic chemistry in Chapter 12 of Lila.
Life is not a physical attribute of any system that I know of but an emergent property
of a
complex physical system, just as society is emergent from the interaction of
biological
patterns and intellect from social patterns.
If it were the case that you could completely reconstruct all of the physical patterns
of the
Inorganic level of the body at a particular instant in time then the other levels
would follow
as a consequence. Again, this does not mean that the self is contained within the
Inorganic PoV's of the Inorganic Level but that complete system can be constructed
from
this level with the self as part of the emergent patterns.
The self could, quite reasonably, be described as the product of our experiences. This
would agree with Diana's comment:
> Diana wrote
> >I think the problem you're having with it might be that in Pirsig's self
> >there is no center of the self which is the way the SOM presents it.
> >Pirsig's concept is just a convergence of patterns jostling with each
> >other with no particular location of a knowing self.
as the product of the interaction of the patterns of different levels from where we
derive
our experiences and which creates the self has no centre. It is a massivly complex
network
of different patterns.
But these experiences, which require DQ and SQ patterns are past events. As this is
the
case how do past events manage to create the self which exists in the present. There
must
be some way of 'recording' these experiences such that they play their part in the
overall
system which we refer to as the self. As has been pointed out (by Roger), our physical
bodies are not constant in their composition as the whole of the physical body is
replaced
every so often. By a process of elimination the only place that these experiences can
reside, such that they continue to exist, is in the relationship of the physical
components
of the body.
Horse
MOQ Online - http://www.moq.org
