"Alexander Kobel" <[email protected]> writes:
> Argh, Ctrl-W ate my posting...
Ctrl-Z did not restore it?
> AFAICS, with your patch the LyricExtender engraving routines are
> called irregardless of the existence of an ExtenderEvent, right? So an
> ExtenderEvent doesn't have to appear even internally anymore? Sounds
> like the cleanest approach to me.
It's cleaner for the representation and it frees actual extenders to
carry meaning. More importantly, it makes old sources continue to work
as expected.
> Now, please don't get me wrong on the following. I appreciate that you
> participate in that issue, and I value your insight on both the
> architectural and the UI side a lot. I just want to make sure that you
> are aware of the thoughts we spent on that issue around the turn of
> the year, and save everybody time and discussions.
Yes, this sucks. I am not proud of it either. The reason I mess like
that so late in the game is that I'd like a version of this to go into
2.20, and for that, the interfaces should have stabilized. And nothing
is more stable like using preexisting interfaces.
It does not help that right now I am having a fever. That does not
necessarily make me more coherent and I'll probably have to go back to
bed soonish.
> I'm somewhat shivering to hear the you want to "get along without
> `no-extender` and `force-extender`". Are you talking about the
> internals and/or the UI here?
In a manner, both, but mainly the UI.
> `no-extender` is important in some cases, e.g. to replicate sources
> without extenders or for special-purpose lyrics (e.g., I'm thinking of
> functional analysis symbols). `'collapse-length = #+inf.0` should be
> functionally equivalent, but some people expressed the (reasonable,
> IMHO) desire that `collapse-length` should be decoupled from an
> on-/off-toggle.
My first thought here was to just use \omit LyricExtender : that would
have perfectly matched preexisting functionality. However, this
replaces the stencil with #f and there is no way to resurrect it by
writing __ . One would have to write something like \once\undo\omit
LyricExtender syllable __ and that would suck.
Setting collapse-length to #+inf.0 would save a property but not a user
interface. Since no-extender does not actually cause no extender (they
can still be forced), I'd prefer something like automatic-extenders, a
property that can be switched off but is on by default.
However, there is no real point in creating extenders that are known to
get thrown away: if engravers _look_ for extenders, it would be best if
the equivalent of no-extenders would stop an extender grob to be created
at all, again making it easy to recover previous behavior.
> Forced extenders are required for some manual tweaks or, again,
> special purposes such as lone notes before volta repeats, where an
> extender into the second repeat bracket needs to be indicated. (BTW,
> there have been wishes that the mutually exclusive `collapse-length`
> and `forced-length` are not merged into one property.)
I'll have to read up on it.
> Starting from scratch, I'd opt for translating the `__` token to
> forced extenders. However, a reinterpretation of `__` was not
> well-received.
It isn't an actual reinterpretation as far as I see it: by setting the
equivalent of no-extenders you'll get back the previous behavior
exactly.
> Also, ignoring and deprecating `__` for a while leaves lyrics (with
> manual extenders) compatible between 2.19.55+some and earlier (in
> particular, 2.18.x) versions.
Where do you see any incompatibility in my proposal.
> Again, all these points have been discussed in a heap of mails on
> -devel end of 2016. Just to make sure we are on the same page.
I'll read up on it. Sorry for this mess.
--
David Kastrup
---
** [issues:#4509] Enhancement: automatically engrave lyric extenders**
**Status:** Started
**Created:** Sat Jul 18, 2015 03:23 AM UTC by Anonymous
**Last Updated:** Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:31 PM UTC
**Owner:** Alexander Kobel
**Attachments:**
-
[Selection_005.png](https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/4509/attachment/Selection_005.png)
(263.8 kB; image/png)
*Originally created by:* *anonymous
*Originally created by:*
[[email protected]](http://code.google.com/u/116549170756205086316/)
Actually, this is a content vs. presentation issue. The current approach has
lyric extenders ‘hardcoded’ within the lyricmode input, whereas often it
depends on layout whether I want an extender printed or not:
– In tight horizontal spacing, we might not need an extender, but when spacing
is stretched, it might become necessary. This can come through different
\(page/line\) breaking, parallel contexts present only in some editions \(part
vs. score\), Completion\_heads\_engraver \(mensural without
barlines/transcription with barlines\).
– Long syllables might not need an extender, where short syllables do.
– Often, all voices share the same text, but have extenders in different
places. If extenders need not be given explicitly, the lyricmode input code can
be reused much easier.
After all, the extenders don’t add any additional meaning, but only serve to
improve legibility in such cases where they do.
This would require:
– Recognising the end of a word by absence of a hyphen.
– Comparing printed length of the melisma notes vs. the syllable, likely after
line breaking. After all, extenders will never influence horizontal spacing.
They might, however, affect vertical spacing. \(unless we chose to omit \(or
shift\) the extender in that case?\)
– Personally, I think very short extenders shouldn’t be printed. There should
be some kind of threshold.
It’s also one of the usecases where a proper representation of a ‘lyric word’
would be helpful, along with [issue 2458](#2458).
Possibly related:
[issue 4098](#4098)
[Version
2.12](http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/user/lilypond/Aligning-lyrics-to-a-melody#Multiple-notes-to-one-syllable)
had this listed as a Known issue.
https://codereview.appspot.com/313240043 )
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