On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 7:37 PM Thomas Morley <thomasmorle...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi all, > > Being on the lists for many years now I remember only a few posts > which were inappropriate: > > Long time ago. there was a user with a post others felt uncomfortable > with. But Graham denied a problem. But there was a followup which > definitely was. > And Graham told the user that it was not appropriate. As a result the > problem was cured. > > I once told a user myself not to write about politics. As a result the > problem was solved. > > There was a user definitely offending all, especially developers. > Several complaints were posted, even the list-admin was called, but he > didn't ban him. Iirc, he recommended everyone who can't bear him, to > set him on a blacklist. I may recall wrongly, but that's what I > finally did. > Sometime later this user stopped posting... > > If I remember correctly these are _all_ problematic posts (ofcourse I > may have missed some) > Do we need a CoC for them? > I doubt. > While I think that the proposed CoC-behaviour should be naturally, I'm > uncomfortable with the proposed consequences for violating it. At > least in the past we got back on track more or less pretty easily, > without CoC. > > Now to David and his communication. > I'm aware people often feel offended by him. > Though, we all know or at least should know about his communication > problems, I'm absolutely sure he knows about them, likely better than > we. > > I always found that most of the bad feelings resulted of misunderstandings. > Sometimes David misunderstood, and replied strange. Once his > misunderstanding is cleared he usually corrects his post. > Sometimes the recipient of his post _misunderstands_ a post as > offending, while it is meant most simply as a description or > recommendation. > > As an example look at the review of one of my own patches > https://codereview.appspot.com/270640043 > Quoting dak: > "This looks like a total mess." > "Total waste of effort." > "Aaand another one." > > Ofcourse quotation is without any context (you may red it up, if you want) > You can _interpret_ this as trashing my patch at the worst, but I'm > used to take his posts literal, i.e.: > It _was_ a "total mess" -> I improved the patch > I argued against "waste of effort" -> convinced him > And there _was_ another issue -> I improved the patch > > Finally the patch came through. > > I'd like to recommend that everyone argues with him, if you think he is wrong. > Otherwise take his posts literal and _not_ offending. > > > > > Am Do., 6. Feb. 2020 um 00:32 Uhr schrieb Janek Warchoł > <janek.lilyp...@gmail.com>: > > > śr., 5 lut 2020 o 14:41 David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org> napisał(a): > > > > > Janek Warchoł <janek.lilyp...@gmail.com> writes: > > > > In short, it's been found (I think Mike will be able to give you > > > > specific > > > > examples) that having code of conduct encourages contributions from > > > > newcomers. > > > > > > I rather think that a friendly atmosphere encourages contributions from > > > newcomers. Whether an upfront requirement to commit to a set of rules > > > with an enforcement team is perceived as a guarantee of a friendly > > > atmosphere is debatable. [...] > > > the principal impact [of Code of Conduct] to be expected on > > > LilyPond development appears to have an official body entitled to > > > censure my behavior and eventually, out of a sense of duty, remove me. > > > > > > > Do you think that approaching other people with suspicion like this (i.e. > > expecting they have worst intentions, which is getting close to a > > conspiracy theory) contributes to a friendly atmosphere? I don't think so. > > I would take David post _literal_ > He simply told us from his previous bad experiences and his feelings > it may happen again here, now based on the proposed CoC. > > I would be very sad to loose him. > > > And honestly, I'm very sorry to read something like this from you. It made > > me regret coming back to the project, and almost made me want to resign > > again. > > I would be very sad to loose you (again) as well! > Janek, I always had the feeling you love a community with all people > "on the same track", though David is "special". > > So to repeat myself, everyone should take his post literal, not offending! > > > I'd love to see a community bearing different personalities, even > personalities with problematic conversation skills. > For me it's like strange english from a non-native speaker (like me). > It's sometimes difficult and/or tedious to understand but mostly worth > the attention. > > > Well, long mail for a non-native speaker, and I still have the feeling > I didn't express myself very well. > Though, I did the best I could. >
+1 Thank you, Harm. The other David