Am 08.02.2018 01:08, schrieb Urs Liska:
Am 07.02.2018 um 22:56 schrieb Blöchl Bernhard:
If you use equally tempered scale f♭ major is really identical with e major. (That is not true in just tempered tuning.) May be with my limited knowledge of music I misunderstood something?

Maybe you should start sudying music as an artistic and historical
matter instead of just an abstract or mathematical model.

Schwanengesang has 4 ♭s. Concerning to the circle of fifth that is f minor or a♭ major. That is not the same as f♭ major as mentioned in the original mail?

If you can't even tell if that song is in a flat major or f minor you
shouldn't even start discussing this.
Apart from that I already explained that this song's main key is a
flat major and that it moves on to reach f flat minor (as a sudominant
to c flat major) at a certain moment.

My point was that this f flat minor seventh chord is really f flat
minor and not e minor.

If one is doing functional harmony and stacking thirds, indeed f minor and a♭ major it is different, producing different chord progressions because starting with f or with a♭ major respectively. So the Schwanengaesang needs some investigation and harmonic analysis to make clear the used key, f minor and a♭ major. Skilled musicians (I am not) might do that.

To give some beginner-level hints: The song starts with an a flat
major chord, ends with an a flat major chord, and has a key signature
of four flats. So adventurous spirits might consider putting a bet on
one out of the two candidates.

If one is only playing the notes of the sheet is this really important?


Not in equally tempered scale. All that feelings of keys refer to the historic tunings. And by the way, do you know that Bachs "Wohltemperierte Klavier" was written just to show how awfull that sounds in the ears of musicians of taht time? (I heard that in my side studies to physics in the Music Academie and you find that theory on the net as well.)

To prevent myself from senseless discussions as a music hobbyist I will ignore future discussions of the experts. I do not think that makes sense on the basis of equally tempered scale that disturbes any musical feelings. Therefor I like string quartets!

Am 07.02.2018 22:18, schrieb Urs Liska:
Am 07.02.2018 um 21:13 schrieb Blöchl Bernhard:
You mention f♭? Then you get a double ♭!
{\key fes \major c d e}

You go better with

{\key e \major c d e}

That double crosses and double ♭s happen frequently if you transcripe music. in this cases it's better to use the circle of fifth/fourth, however you might call it.

Wow, quite a bold statement, given that we have no clue about the
historical context of the original poster's question.
I'd always argue that depending on the style (actually most European
music from the 18th until far into the 20th century) E major is worlds
apart from Fes major (and with "worlds" I really mean heaven/earth,
life/death, dream/reality, whatever you want).

My favourite example is in Schubert's song Schwangesang D 744
(,_D.744_(Schubert,_Franz) ).
The song is in a flat major, then turns to the darker mood of the
variant a flat minor and its parallel c flat major (both six flats)
and then reaches an absolute anticlimax on the word "auflösend"
(meaning: life is dissolving) on the minor subdominant: a fes minor
seventh chord (=> <fes' asas' ces'' eses''> in LilyPond language)!
There's no way this could ever make sense in e minor.
But what makes even *less* sense is the helpless rendering of the
original edition: <fes g ces d> (the d even being "resolved" to des).

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