On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 1:47 PM David Wright <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Thu 14 May 2020 at 10:38:59 (+0200), Hans Åberg wrote: > > > On 14 May 2020, at 03:38, David Wright <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I can't say that I've met > > > English speakers in either the UK or US who use b and h for Bflat and B. > > > Under what circumstances do you hear it: amateur choirs and orchestral > > > players, professionals, or in academic duscussions of German music? > > > > In general, there is a divide in musical notation in Europe, one is > > Germany, and to the north and south and east, and the other, the countries > > to the west, France, England, etc. > > > > One difference is the note names, H and B in the Germanic tradition [1], > > and J.S. Bach used it [2]. > > Thank you, very useful. > > On Thu 14 May 2020 at 07:45:23 (-0500), David Nalesnik wrote: > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 8:39 PM David Wright <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > On Wed 13 May 2020 at 16:35:48 (-0500), David Nalesnik wrote: > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 3:34 PM antlists <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > On 13/05/2020 16:38, David Kastrup wrote: > > > > > > Given the number of English-speaking LilyPond users who all share > > > > > > the > > > > > > somewhat strange habit of calling a b-flat "b" if there is a flat > > > > > > in the > > > > > > key signature, it is sort of a safe bet that you are not the first > > > > > > to > > > > > > make this kind of proposal. > > > > > > > > > > Are these the same ones who call b an h? > > > > > > > > > > Certainly for someone who's mother tongue is English (NOT American) > > > > > I'd > > > > > never call b-flat a b because how would I tell whether it's flat or > > > > > not :-) > > > > > > > > ! hear it a lot in the US. (And it's often correlated with losing > > > > sight of the key signature...) > > > > > > Assuming ! stands for "I" and not negation, I can't say that I've met > > > English speakers in either the UK or US who use b and h for Bflat and B. > > > Under what circumstances do you hear it: amateur choirs and orchestral > > > players, professionals, or in academic duscussions of German music? > > > > Hi David Wright, > > > > Once again the name "David" rears its head! You are mixing my > > response with David Kastrup's > > I think I would have as much difficulty doing that as my email client would. > > AIUI David Kastrup lives in Germany, in b/h land, but without any > context, I don't know whether this meant that he thought > English-speaking LilyPond users were steeped in the Germanic > tradition, or just being polite¹, confused², confusing³, or > just plain incompetent (perhaps implied by "strange habit").
I know that David Kastrup has commented more fully on this topic on this list before. > > Wol gave these "b" people the benefit of the doubt as being "b/h" > people (but why was the American tongue mentioned?). I think the choice of b and b-fIat has something to do with the confusing nature of this thread. I read Wol's comment about calling b-flat "b" as a reflection on speakers of English, nothing to "b" and "h" in German. David Kastrup's observation about the "somewhat strange habit of calling a b-flat 'b' if there is a flat in the key signature" likewise--nothing to do with German practice. > > When you, David Nalesnik, wrote "! hear it a lot in the US", > I wondered where, specifically. I think the main difference > over here is note and rest lengths. As you might gather from > the combination of my email domain and my timezone (and yours), > I take an interest in such differences, even if only as > post-rehearsal pub-chat⁴. > I can really only speak of the Midwest, and of undergraduate music students. It is my observation that the habit of calling F-sharps "F" goes along with mistakes in sight-reading and in chord spelling. > So I was perplexed by your post about my mixing up your response with > David K's. Perhaps you might explain the referent of "it", if it's > not ‘calling a b-flat "b"’. Sorry! I misinterpreted you and only added to the confusion! > Cheers, > David.
