Hi linart folks,
Over on linux-audio-dev, there's been a recent discussion of having
a music competition not entirely unlike demo comps from days of
yore, or the contests on gimp.org. But it's becoming obvious that
it's rather off-topic for linux-audio-dev per se, so those of us
interested are wondering if there's a better place to talk about
this. Specifically, I am wondering if anyone on linart would object
if we moved in here. ("Hey, are you gonna eat that?" :-) )
I've taken the liberty of attaching a copy of the discussion so far.
If this is annoying please yell at me. Suggestions of other, more
appropriate venues for our little comp would be welcome.
--
................ paul winkler ..................
slinkP arts: music, sound, illustration, design, etc.
A member of ARMS -----> http://www.reacharms.com
or http://www.mp3.com/arms or http://www.amp3.net/arms
personal page ----> http://www.ulster.net/~abigoo
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Hi all --
I read the article on Slashdot the other day entitled "Making
Music With Linux: We're Getting There", which includes a nice
mini-interview with our own DLP. I also noticed some replies
there from other LAD regulars (it's nice to find real content
hidden amongst the noise).
However, to me the most interesting part of the article
was one that got virtually no response in the forum, so I thought
I'd inquire here. The writer pointed to the demo scene from the
Amiga and DOS, and said that the strong sense of competition there
played a large part in spurring on development progress of the
related music software.
Here in the quasi-Socialistic (and I mean that in a good way)
world of Open Source coding, we tend to look down on competition
because it causes duplicated effort, fragmentation, and various
other problems; we encourage cooperation and integration between
projects as much as possible. While this has obvious benefits,
it does somewhat leave out the nice adreneline rush associated
with intense competition. Is there some way to reap the benefits
of both?
I would propose that a nice happy medium could be reached if
we were to start competing based on content (the actual music
we produce, rather than the software we write to help us make
the music). You know, a good-natured, for-fame-not-money,
competition each month for, say, who can write the best fugue,
best two minute techno piece, best simulation of a violin solo
using nothing but Csound, etc.
All pieces (with source and/or description of the software
used to make them) would be posted on a web site for download
and voting, and we could burn a CD once in a while as
appropriate. Since there's plenty of precedent for this sort
of thing in the demo world and the like (the International
Raytracing Competition is extremely similar in concept) I'm sure
we could work out the inevitable copyright issues in a manner
that would make everybody happy.
Anybody else up for this?
Div.
--
David Slomin, Engineer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
AltaVista Business Solutions http://solutions.altavista.com/
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Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:41:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Ben Crowder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, David Slomin wrote:
<snip>
> Anybody else up for this?
Yes, yes, most definitely yes! :) That's one thing that has, regrettably,
disappeared, and it's time for it to come back. Friendly competition is a
Good Thing(tm). Linux multimedia has developed to the point where this is
indeed possible (take, for instance, SoundTracker, which is quite usable).
Not only will it foster creative output, but in the process bugs in the
current software will be found which may have taken much longer to
uncover, and the end result will be higher quality software. I've been
waiting for this for a long time... <nostalgic sigh> ;)
Just my $.02,
Ben
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quoting David Slomin:
[X]
> Anybody else up for this?
> Div.
what do you propose, an l-a-d comp or something ranging more
widely?
Cheers
John
--
http://linuxmusic.cjb.net
pgp public key @ http://www.crosswinds.net/~linuxmusic/pubring.html
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John Littler wrote:
>
> what do you propose, an l-a-d comp or something ranging more
> widely?
I'm not sure. I'm probably not the best person to run this sort of
thing, never having run a competition of any sort before. I learned
that there was a demo scene after the time that it had largely
evaporated, so I never got to participate in any of the old comps.
I have, however, had a tremendous amount of fun with other
creativity-oriented competitions before (writing, visual arts,
non-computer-based composing, etc). That's not to say that I'm the
greatest creative mind of the modern era... far from it, but the
competition is fun anyway.
My idea for this was basically to pick a subject matter each month,
hopefully varying throughout the scope of different kinds of music
(traditional computer music, classical in its different forms,
techno, rock, jazz, synthetically simulated a cappella, or whatever
else you can think of). There would be a few limitations applicable
to all the contests, such as:
1. Each entry must make use of computers in some significant
manner, though not exclusively; you could sample acoustic
instruments for example. Linux would be the only legit operating
system, but any software, free or otherwise, would be fair game.
Running software meant for other platforms under an emulator (Wine,
DOSemu, Executor, VMware, etc) would not count. I'd personally not
mind allowing all flavors of Unix (maybe not Irix or NextStep since
their music software is already pretty well established), but this
_is_ a Linux mailing list after all.
2. Each author must abide by an agreed upon copyright/license so
that we don't break down arguing later on.
On top of these, the individual contests for each month might have
further limitations such as one the following:
1. Only allowed to use one particular piece of software.
2. Only allowed to use one class of software, such as a synthesis
language, tracker, MIDI sequencer, audio clip sequencer, etc.
3. Only allowed to use free software (for some pre-agreed
definition of "free").
4. Composition must fit within some maximum time, file size,
processor needed to run in realtime, etc.
I'm sure you all can come up with better ideas.
Div.
--
David Slomin, Engineer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
AltaVista Business Solutions http://solutions.altavista.com/
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David Slomin wrote:
> I would propose that a nice happy medium could be reached if
> we were to start competing based on content (the actual music
> we produce, rather than the software we write to help us make
> the music). You know, a good-natured, for-fame-not-money,
> competition each month for, say, who can write the best fugue,
> best two minute techno piece, best simulation of a violin solo
> using nothing but Csound, etc.
> Anybody else up for this?
Definitely. I'd love to hear what *music* comes out of the people on
this list - I don't think I've heard anyone except DLP.
I know that the gimp.org contests played a role in getting me
interested in Gimp: it's a cool place to browse and see what regular
end-users are able to produce with the software.
I (or Jorn) could add a "Contest" area to the LAD pages, of course.
Administrative trouble, of course:
* How do we decide who "wins"? Someone would have to administer a
vote, I assume.
* How do we decide what this month's category is? Probably this
would be at the discretion of whoever volunteers to run the contest
(like you, Div!)
* Would we get enough entries each month to make it a real contest?
Maybe once every 2 months is better? Or even quarterly?
* Would this contest be strictly for the LAD list? Or open to anyone
else using linux for music?
* Would the LAD list subscribers be annoyed at long threads about
this topic? Gotta keep the S/N ratio down! Is there a better forum
for such a contest? After all it doesn't have anything to do with
linux audio *development* per se... Maybe this would be more
on-topic for the Linart list? (*very* quiet over there and I
honestly have no idea how many people are on that list.)
--
................ paul winkler ..................
slinkP arts: music, sound, illustration, design, etc.
A member of ARMS -----> http://www.reacharms.com
or http://www.mp3.com/arms or http://www.amp3.net/arms
personal page ----> http://www.ulster.net/~abigoo
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Some comments on contest rules...
David Slomin wrote:
> I'm not sure. I'm probably not the best person to run this sort of
> thing, never having run a competition of any sort before.
Drat. OK, who *really* wants to run it? :)
> 1. Each entry must make use of computers in some significant
> manner, though not exclusively; you could sample acoustic
> instruments for example. Linux would be the only legit operating
> system, but any software, free or otherwise, would be fair game.
Good.
> Running software meant for other platforms under an emulator (Wine,
> DOSemu, Executor, VMware, etc) would not count.
"not count" = not count as linux & therefore forbidden?
"not count" = not count as not linux & therefore permitted?
I favor disallowing emulators: the contest should strive to
encourage native linux solutions.
> I'd personally not
> mind allowing all flavors of Unix (maybe not Irix or NextStep since
> their music software is already pretty well established), but this
> _is_ a Linux mailing list after all.
I don't know where to draw the line but certainly I can't imagine
running FreeBSD would be a problem.
> 2. Each author must abide by an agreed upon copyright/license so
> that we don't break down arguing later on.
Right, we can just break down arguing before we ever get started. :)
Personally I think a contest like this would also be a good
opportunity to promote the idea of copyleft applied to artistic
works.
There's been brief spurts of license discussion on the Linart list.
There are links to the archives at: http://dsl.org/linart/
Linart administrator Michael Stutz has an interesting copyleft
license he's written (with some legal help) called the Design
Science License, or DSL. See http://dsl.org/copyleft/#dsl for more
about this.
> On top of these, the individual contests for each month might have
> further limitations such as one the following:
(snip)
> 3. Only allowed to use free software (for some pre-agreed
> definition of "free").
The Open Source Definition is probably a good reference. See
http://www.opensource.org/osd.html
List of conforming licenses at:
http://www.opensource.org/licenses/
................ paul winkler ..................
slinkP arts: music, sound, illustration, design, etc.
A member of ARMS -----> http://www.reacharms.com
or http://www.mp3.com/arms or http://www.amp3.net/arms
personal page ----> http://www.ulster.net/~abigoo
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Paul Winkler wrote:
> Drat. OK, who *really* wants to run it? :)
I'd be willing to, certainly. I just wouldn't necessarily do it
right (if there is such an absolute). I also would like to be
able to enter the contests, which could be awkward if I was the
administrator. There are ways to work around that problem using
well-thought-out voting systems, but again, I don't have any
experience in coming up with such a system.
> I favor disallowing emulators: the contest should strive to
> encourage native linux solutions.
Yes, that's what I meant. I was trying to be careful in my
wording so as to still allow the JVM (not quite "native", but
not quite an OS either). I guess I didn't do a very good job.
> I don't know where to draw the line but certainly I can't imagine
> running FreeBSD would be a problem.
Agreed, but I'd put it to a vote sooner than deciding arbitrarily.
> Right, we can just break down arguing before we ever get started. :)
Errgh. :-)
> Personally I think a contest like this would also be a good
> opportunity to promote the idea of copyleft applied to artistic
> works.
(snip: DSL, Open Source TM)
Personally, I don't really care very much; I just know that it
matters a lot to other people, and I don't want to alienate
anyone before we've even started. I wouldn't want to piss off
either the socialists or the capitalists among us; for me
composing is strictly a hobby, but many people use it to pay
their rent (or at least attempt to).
Div.
--
David Slomin, Engineer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
AltaVista Business Solutions http://solutions.altavista.com/
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