Linux-Advocacy Digest #581, Volume #26 Thu, 18 May 00 13:13:08 EDT
Contents:
Re: Things Linux can't do! (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Why my company will NOT use Linux (Bob Hauck)
Re: Microsoft finally gets the idea... almost (Andy Newman)
Re: Why only Microsoft should be allowed to create software (Andy Newman)
Re: Things Linux can't do! (John Culleton)
Re: Desktop use, office apps (Stephen Cornell)
Re: Why my company will NOT use Linux (Paul Voller)
Re: WHICH LINUX??? (Paul Voller)
Re: Desktop use, office apps
Re: Question
RE: Desktop use, office apps ("Raul Valero")
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux (Doug Alcorn)
Re: Your office and Linux. (David Steinberg)
Re: German Govt says Microsoft a security risk (John Hasler)
Re: Is the PC era over? (Tim Tyler)
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux (George Russell)
Re: Desktop use, office apps (George Russell)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Things Linux can't do!
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:41:36 GMT
On Thu, 18 May 2000 04:32:08 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <8fuipm$2cd4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell) wrote:
>
>> Yes, I was going to point this out too. Someone whose last
>> contact with Linux was an old Slackware or RedHat 4.1 would
>> be shocked to see a Mandrake 7.0 install. By contrast, installing
>> Win NT is still just as bad because the distribution hasn't
>> changed, the CD still doesn't boot, and you need a bigger service
>> pack add-on now.
>
>Strange how Linux users have no problem using this on me w.r.t VMS.
>Many of the posters who have criticized of VMS have not even used VMS
>since version 5, when it was still using Motif, had rudimentary cluster
>support, and was not yet available on Alpha's. Yet they have no
>problems criticizing VMS on these 10 year old observations.
>
>In the last four years, VMS has advanced considerably more than Linux
>has. But not very many people have seen it because Compaq has this
So?
>insane marketing strategy that people will actually find out about the
>best products.
The areas in which VMS excel are not the areas that most people
are particularly interested in. Past a certain number of
significant digits and load level, it just doesn't matter any more
for most people.
Meanwhile, FreeBSD on one single CPU box is more than capable of
handling server loads that would melt most other OSes.
--
In what language does 'open' mean 'execute the evil contents of' |||
a document? --Les Mikesell / | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: Why my company will NOT use Linux
Reply-To: hauck[at]codem{dot}com
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:40:18 GMT
On Thu, 18 May 2000 01:12:51 GMT, TheKeyMan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Steve. Still have the multiple personality problem I see.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| Codem Systems, Inc.
-| http://www.codem.com/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andy Newman)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft finally gets the idea... almost
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 01:44:30 +1000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This whole debate is very funny. NeXTMail of course allowed exactly
what Outlook does (did :) and it was a Unix program (if you count
NeXTSTEP as a Unix which is sort of was, just with a lot of extra's).
But it did it ten years ago. It's a circle game alright.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andy Newman)
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why only Microsoft should be allowed to create software
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 01:33:30 +1000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Lars Tr�ger wrote:
>Next we'll have people advocating a compiler because it compiles
>programs with syntax errors.
The two most commonly used compilers by developers - gcc and visual
c - both compile programs with syntax errors without complaint, even
with do-whizz options enabled. Some people advocate them.
--
Chuck Berry lied about the promised land
------------------------------
From: John Culleton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Things Linux can't do!
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 15:48:30 GMT
> >
> > There is every sound reason to believe that with the Breakup of
> > Microsoft,
> > Combined with the manpower of Linux, we see a sudden death of
Microsoft
> > OS by 2006.
> >
>
> That's still a slow death of Microsoft in SIX YEARS compared to the
> cooling down of Linux hype in just SIX MONTHS.
>
> > There you go!
> >
> > Charlie
>
>
Predictions of the death of either OS are premature. I expect Linux to
gradually expand its user base over the next six months, particularly in
Europe and particularly in the server market area. After all its growth
has been steady for several years.
As for Win 2000 I expect it or its descendents to be around for a while.
It will not be a failure like (in the hardware arena) IBM's microchannel
architecture.
John Culleton
Please visit http://ccpl.carr.org/~john/
My Linux Slackware 2.2.15 system on
Thursday May 18 2000
11:49am up 4 days, 13:24, 3 users, load average: 0.05, 0.04, 0.00
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Stephen Cornell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Desktop use, office apps
Date: 18 May 2000 17:02:25 +0100
R. Christopher Harshman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> StarOffice
> Far too slow to load. We're using just the applications (launching
> `soffice staroffice.private:starwriter` for instance, to use just the
> word-processor without the desktop).
Apologies for straying off-topic, but I wasn't aware that one could
launch just components of Staroffice in this way. Where is it
documented? I tried launching starwriter in the way described above,
but it didn't work - instead it launched the full suite.
--
Stephen Cornell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel/fax +44-1223-336644
University of Cambridge, Zoology Department, Downing Street, CAMBRIDGE CB2 3EJ
------------------------------
From: Paul Voller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why my company will NOT use Linux
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:03:07 +0100
On Thu, 18 May 2000, TheKeyMan wrote:
> To put it bluntly, Linux Looks like shit. The fonts are jagged and
> boxy. Staroffice is a complete bloated mess of a joke compared to
> Office.
> Netscape looks like crap and performs like crap also.
>
XFree86 V.4 supports TrueType fonts - give it another few months for the
distributors to start to include it in their distributions.
Star office DOES suck - I agree with you that far. Seeing as Linux can run
non a 486/Pentium with relative Ease, StarOffice seems to require the
power of a PIII or a Cray.
Netscape isn't that bad, although the newish version 6 looks good.
bye.
P.
------------------------------
From: Paul Voller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: WHICH LINUX???
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:08:22 +0100
Er, why do you frequent a linux newsgroup if you don't like it? Please
save everyone's time and effort and stop doing this. This is a newsgroup,
not the playground. People like you make we want to use Linux even more!
Don't have nightmares,
P.
===
Paul Voller
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.mullitt.freeserve.co.uk
On Mon, 15 May 2000, Syphon wrote:
> None of them...Linux sucks and you will find this out in time. Run
> Windows 2k and run a real, supported operating system instead of a
> piece of junk hack job......
>
>
>
> On Mon, 15 May 2000 17:33:19 -0500, Kurt wrote:
>
> >I am a newbie to Linux and am wondering which Linux to go with. Suse,
> >Mandrake, Redhat, Debian, Corel Linux etc......... you get the point.
> >I am doing reading but haven't found good info that describes the
> >differences between the Linux variations. could anyone give me links,
> >or info that will explain differences of each and what they are best
> >suited for. I've heard Corel Linux is easy to work with, as far as
> >Linux goes, and am looking into that more than the others. Please
> >provide ANY INFORMATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >Thanks for your input
> >KURT
>
>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: Desktop use, office apps
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:16:00 GMT
On Wed, 17 May 2000 20:12:48 -0400, Jim Ross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> On Wed, 17 May 2000 14:18:49 GMT, Tim Koklas
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >Now, that's the first time I hear someone claim that Word is crap. But
>> >again ... equal alternatives?
>>
>> Star Office. It lets me share files in a microsoft dominated world, does
>> everything office does and isn't a second guessing abomination.
>
>Maybe but their are limitations in Star Office.
>Besides less than stellar filters, having to run everything to do
>wordprocessing is about the worst idea I can think of.
>It does seem Star Division was trying to replace everything in the OS. Not
>very good idea I don't think.
The desktop is SO's least attractive feature, but once I open a document,
I don't have to constantly watch the screen to see if it will obey what I
type, unlike that second guessing abomination, word.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: Question
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:16:50 GMT
On Wed, 17 May 2000 22:57:27 GMT, Raul Valero <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>What does prevent Microsoft selling its own Linux distribution with
>integrated browser (may even be IE), bonus packages (like Office)
>and a propietary installed (as most distros do) ? Then, wouldn't this
>be as monopolistic as Windows ? Just asking for opinion.
>
MS would have to include a dozen undocumented API that only their apps
would work with. :-)
------------------------------
From: "Raul Valero" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Desktop use, office apps
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:23:37 GMT
> 3. By default, MS Office loads it'self on bootup so you're not really
> loading word but just maximizing an already running copy.
I think he is right in here, in my machine, Word 97 (with any of its crap
into startup or init files) takes 4 seconds (K6-2/350, 256MB PC100 SDRAM
and 8GB UDMA66).
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
From: Doug Alcorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:26:02 GMT
Lathi gets out a clue stick.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH) writes:
> On Thu, 18 May 2000 04:49:10 GMT, Mongoose <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >On Thu, 18 May 2000 01:00:45 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >>> So what is the problem with doing this in the KDE desktop?
> >>
> >>KDE isn't free.
> >
> > uh what? I don't remember paying for KDE...
>
> It's base library is "owned" by a corporation.
>
> A good suggestion might be to replace libqt entirely with a
> completely liberated clone. However, it's dubious whether or
> not the KDE developers would actually take advantage of such
> a thing.
First, the Qt library _is_ now free. Trolltech decided to license it
using a "free" license. Second, there already was (a now dead?)
project to reimplement Qt with a free license. Third, if Qt weren't
free and there was a free compatible library, it doesn't matter if the
KDE developers used it or not. The end user could without any
problems. If the two libraries were compatible, then Qt based apps
would not even know that they weren't using Qt.
--
(__) Doug Alcorn (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.lathi.net)
oo / Win a 66MB capacity tape drive. Help me win too!
|_/ http://www.ecrix.com/extreme/getReferrals.cfm?ref=7612
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Steinberg)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Your office and Linux.
Date: 18 May 2000 16:26:58 GMT
John Travis ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
: Charlie, I'm afraid I have some bad news. Linus just called and he
: wants you to stop using linux immediately. He thinks you are
: embarrassing the rest of us (go figure). He has even threatened to
: start a petition (which he assures me every linux user will sign), just
: to get you to stop posting this crap.
Sweet! I'll sign!
(My favourite was the bit about us using Linux in 100 years. Charlie
makes Bill The-internet-wasn't-on-my-radar-screen-untill-1995 Gates look
like a visionary!)
--
David Steinberg -o)
Computer Engineering Undergrad, UBC / \
[EMAIL PROTECTED] _\_v
------------------------------
From: John Hasler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: German Govt says Microsoft a security risk
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 12:17:15 GMT
softrat writes:
> Nonsense. Any organization which advocates the violent overthrow of the
> government is illegal, i.e., outlawed.
The act of doing so is illegal and individuals who do so or who conspire to
do so may be prosecuted, but to get a conviction the government must
produce evidence of an overt act. Mere membership in an organization is
never illegal: guilt by association is unconstitutional.
--
John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
From: Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Is the PC era over?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 16:20:40 GMT
In comp.lang.java.advocacy JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: On Tue, 16 May 2000 18:11:07 GMT, Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:>I hate the way expansion cards, go straight into the motherboard, and
:>require disassembly to modify - the whole design seems dreadful.
:>It looks like something from before the age of consumer electronics -
:>which is, in fact, what it is.
: So? It's not as if we are talking some server that might be
: running eBay and needs to tolerate no downtime. You make it
: sound as if the end user has to get out a soldering iron when
: infact all they are doing is opening up a box and plugging cards
: into sockets.
They need to have a posidrive screwdriver. They need to make sure
they don't drop their screwdriver on the motherboard, or pour their coffee
over their CPU. They may need to rearrange their hard drives, and mess
with master/slave settings on them. Even plugging in memory requires you
to disassemble stuff.
This is OK for the geeks - but IBM PC clone computers are now sold to
families all over the place. These were not the original targets of the
design.
I see no real reason why - if a complete redesign was possible - it
should not largely eliminate the necessity for disassembling the computer
to upgrade it. Most components could be plugged into sockets at the
front, and at the back.
I don't necessarily want my computer to look as though it was built by
Sony - but some steps forwards out of the 1970s might help.
--
__________ Lotus Artificial Life http://alife.co.uk/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
|im |yler The Mandala Centre http://mandala.co.uk/ Goodbye cool world.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (George Russell)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:08:33 GMT
On 18 May 2000 11:36:53 GMT, Miquel van Smoorenburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>What most people don't like about KDE is that if you port your
>commercial program to Linux, you'll have to pay for a Qt license.
Proprietary program.... be accurate. Most KDE critics are hypocrites in this
way - critiscise closed apps, and cristicise a toolkit that makes them pay.
>Now that in itself is not so bad, but it's not fair. KDE is built
>on the kernel, X, gcc, you name it - all free. Yet you have to pay
>for this tiny Qt component. I'd rather pay Linus a few bucks for the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How many man years? How many thousand lines of code? More importantly, how
many supplied features and capabilities? How much time and money saved by its
use? How often do you get cross windowing system portability built in?
Excellent support? Comprehensive docs?
There are 100209 lines of code in .cpp and .h in Qt 2.1's src/kernel directory -
this misses out 3rd party stuff, the moc program, tools, dialogs, utils and
widgets, extensions (OpenGL support, Image formats, Xt widgets, NSPlugin), the
tutorial, includes, and examples...
Quite a lot, I feel.
As a user, I've benefited from Qt's existance ever since the release of EzPPP
using Qt. Since then, through the rise of KDE, and its Office suite and tools,
I habe continued to benefit and expect to benefit more.
I am grateful for Troll Techs liberal licensing terms.
George Russell
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (George Russell)
Subject: Re: Desktop use, office apps
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 17:08:32 GMT
On Thu, 18 May 2000 00:31:40 GMT, JEDIDIAH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip Linux vs Windows on old Machines]
>>The Linux people don't expect you to want a GUI too.
>
> That's just the Shill's mantra.
>
> I've likely been running Unix GUI's longer than you've been running
> any computer of any kind.
And yes, early Unix GUI's were about as functional as twm xclock and n*xterm's
to suit user taste.
X11 is a bloated windowing system - layer toolkits (multiple) and desktop
functionality (aka WM, File Manager, toolbar, Help System etc) and it gets
worse.
Mininalistic Windowing systems can load in 500K RAM micros (Atari) , be stored
in ROM (RiscOS), and can offer X11 like network features (QNX/Photon).
X is bloated. Its implementations are staggering under the conflicting ideas of
modernisation, stability, compatability and HW support.
The Windows GUI + Office suite (from the release time of the machine ) is more
usable than Linux + X11 + X11 Office suite on same machine. eg Windows 95 &&
Office 95 in 16Mb 486 - I wouldn't load Navigator in twm on that and expect
results - SOffice would be an exercise in futility, WP Office / KOffice /
Applixware likewise.
George Russell
------------------------------
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End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
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