Linux-Advocacy Digest #669, Volume #26 Wed, 24 May 00 18:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: An honest attempt (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux (Praedor Tempus)
Re: Thorne digest, volume 2451689 (EdWIN)
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux (Matthias Warkus)
Re: Why only Microsoft should be allowed to create software ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: An honest attempt (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Goodwin's Law invoked - Thread now dead (was Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save
It?) (Mayor)
Installing Linux Mandrake 7.0 (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Goodwin's Law invoked - Thread now dead (was Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save
It?) ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Goodwin's Law invoked - Thread now dead (was Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split
Save It?) (Josiah Fizer)
Re: how to enter a bug report against linux? (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Installing Linux Mandrake 7.0 (Mig Mig)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: An honest attempt
Date: 24 May 2000 16:12:36 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell) wrote in <8g1vb6$ahj$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>>If you are running the desktop as root, you should see a 'drakconf'
>>icon which gives you a big push-button menu of 11 configuration
>>choices, one of which is linuxconf. Clicking it should give you
>>the GUI linxuconf. If you are running as a user and su to root
>>in an xterm, you'll have to be sure that you have given yourself
>>permission (xhost + if you don't mind being open) to connect
>>and make sure that DISPLAY is set right after the su.
>
>I'm running as root. I get an xterm with a text version of linuxconf.
This is extremely odd because for xterm to open its window you must
have DISPLAY set correctly. However, if you have DISPLAY set when
you execute linuxconf it will open its own window and run in GUI
mode unless you specify --text on the command line.
Let's start at the beginning. Did you do a normal install of
Mandrake 7.0 or is this an upgrade from something earlier?
Are you using the drakconf icon/menu or some other way to
start linuxconf? What happens if you just type
linuxconf
as a command in an xterm window? If it doesn't open its
own GUI window, what does 'echo $DISPLAY' show? What if
you do 'linuxconf --gui'?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Praedor Tempus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:24:03 -0600
David Steuber wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dowe Keller) writes:
>
> ' [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ' >David Steuber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> ' >
> ' >> Do people really have trouble with ./configure, make, make install?
> ' >> It has _never_ been a problem for me. Maybe I am just lucky. Even
> ' >> though I changed my compiler, libc, and libtools.
> ' >
> ' >That precise process usually works out fine. However, a number of
> ' >these processes require manual modification of the Makefile or a
> ' >custom configuration file. I've also encountered several configure
> ' >scripts that break, and when that happens, you're doomed to rewriting
> ' >the Makefile by hand. And there are still a few programs that just
> ' >provide you with a grab-bag of Makefiles, and you get to pick which
> ' >one you want. Those are *always* disasters, but usually the Makefiles
> ' >are at least short enough that fixing them isn't impossible.
> '
> ' Yow, you make it sound like brain surgery. I can count the number of
> ' times that I had to hack Makefiles to get a program to make on the
Ah, then you are fortunate, or you are using a subclass of the software
I use. I constantly run into problems with the "simple" ./configure,
make, make install process. It usually derives from ./configure not
doing its job. Case in point: I just tried compiling i3d, a 3d
graphics modeller using ./configure, etc. It doesn't work. Nor has
3dom, nor Mindseye and a host of other apps I've compiled. I would
say that the failure rate is in the range of 40% which sucks big.
With i3d, configure runs and makes all the makefiles at the end.
"Ah good", I think, and then run make. It chugs away for a bit
and finally craps out over qtgl (which IS installed) because it
says it isn't there. Ahem...if something required for the making
of the source wasn't there, then configure should have found this
out and not gotten far enough to write the makefiles. At least
with RPM installs I get a pointed list of failed dependencies that
I can easily fix. With the ./configure game it isn't that simple.
I often DO have the header or lib installed that it is failing to
find and I end up having to tweak the Makefile or experiment with
./configure switches to get it to work (about 60% of the time).
The remaining 40% of the 40% that fail I generally give up on
and look for a precompiled binary since there is something subtle
screwy with what the app wants and what I have...and ./configure
doesn't cut the custard. It is failing to find the problem.
I do not automatically check the config.log EVERY time I run
./configure. I should only have to if there is a configuration
failure (and such failure should prevent the Makefiles from being
generated).
Either config scripts need to be better written or a better system
needs to be developed.
I haven't used deb packages so I cannot address them but it would be
nice if when installing an rpm (or trying to build a source rpm) and
a dependency fails, then you should be given the automatic option of
downloading the missing rpm rather than just getting a name. How
about something that follows this script:
========
You: "rpm -Uvh <someapp.rpm>"
This rpm requires <somedependency>
Would you like to download and install the required package(s)? [y/n]
Connecting to...(your preferred ftp or http site or selected from a good
pre-created but editable list or an option to pull from a CD or
harddrive)
Downloading > ######### (hashing ala installing rpm with -Uvh)
Installing dependency
################ (hashing)
Installing <someapp.rpm>
=======
There. Done. Little pain or muss and the deed is done without a lot of
dicking
around. You are up and using the app rather than trying to work out why
you
can't use it or manually searching for the missing rpms. It would be
nice as
well if when picking up the dependency rpm it would check to see if IT
has any
particular dependencies to satisfy...
A graphics frontend that can do this would also be nice. Perhaps
kpackage or
the gnome equivalent could be improved to do this.
Something similar could be done for src.rpms that die for missing
dependencies (I run into this periodically but far less than the problem
arises with ./configure && make && make install).
praedor
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Thorne digest, volume 2451689
From: EdWIN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:22:48 -0700
In article <fSVW4.10728$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Today's Thorne digest:
>
>1> Don't you know?
>
>No;
Prove it, if you think you can.
>why do you think I asked, Edwin?
Posting for entertainment purposes again, Tholen (little boy)?
How typical.
>
>
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
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------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias Warkus)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 17:17:50 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It was the Wed, 24 May 2000 13:00:00 GMT...
...and David Steuber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matthias Warkus) writes:
>
> ' It was the Tue, 23 May 2000 08:59:59 GMT...
> ' ...and David Steuber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ' > The right is non-exlusive. That means everyone can get that right. I
> ' > think TrollTech is just trying to prevent forking of the Qt library
> ' > here.
> '
> ' Exactly that is which is bad IMHO. Real software freedom has always
> ' been the freedom to fork.
>
> That's a good point. But what is the value in real forking?
- Sometimes, forking is good. Look at XEmacs vs. GNU Emacs. It's good
that we've got both of them, isn't it?
- Better code reuse. Just an example: you've got an FPPLed[0] image
manipulation program with a really neat and fast algorithm to
rasterise cutesy little heart shapes. You want to have this
functionality in an Imlib-like library. You can't because you'd have
to fork the code off to modify it and redistribute the "modified
version" as a library.
Now, you might argue this is not forking, and by some clever
legalese, one can make code reuse legal and forking illegal. But
where do you draw the line?
- Enabling people to do the Real Thing(TM). Assume that some company
develops the FPPLed software package FooPro 2000(TM) which is really
cool and useful. Unfortunately, its successor, FooPro 2001(TM), is a
crock, it's taken a design road that you absolutely hate. There are
some improvements you want to see in FooPro some day, but if the
official roadmap of FooPro goes on that way, the future versions
will be horrible.
What are you going to do? Persuade the company to incorporate your
patches and make their design better? Just go with the old FooPro
2000? You can't just patch FooPro 2000 and release your own version
-- forking prohibited. Of course you could release megabytes of
patches and put them on your FTP server next to the original FooPro
2000 source, but well...
You see, if you can't fork it, the software will effectively remain
controllable by the copyright holder(s).
> Do you really want to have ten different major versions of GTK+
> floating around? Or even two? If an application says it uses GTK+
> ver x.y, wouldn't it be simpler to know that the application didn't
> really mean FGTK+ x.y?
Try to find evidence for just *one* fork of that kind. Most forks are
rather benign (like XEmacs/GNU Emacs). I don't know whether any
libraries with established and popular APIs ever forked.
> Linux is held together because people respect the opinion of Linus
> Torvalds. Even so, there are Alan Cox diffs, RTLinux, and probably
> others. The tendency is to stick with Linus Torvalds Linux as the
> base. Will that be true for all GPL projects? What if some group
> decides a certain feature is needed in GTK+, but another group of
> equal size feels that feature doesn't belong, or should be implemented
> in a different way, with a different interface?
This is exactly the point: A free software project always depends on a
consensus. If the consensus is lost, the project splits. The software
has got to split along with it, or those people splitting away from
the main branch would lose their rights w/r/t the software package if
they weren't allowed to fork off their version.
mawa
[0] Fork-Protected Public Licence
--
Focus-Leser!
Dankesager!
Defensivfahrer!
Handschuhtanker!
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why only Microsoft should be allowed to create software
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 16:33:29 -0500
On 24 May 2000 21:49:10 GMT, jansens_at_ibm_dot_net (Karel Jansens)
wrote:
>"Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Marty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> > > Hmm.. interesting. Windows requires a different version of himem.sys
>> than
>> > > the DOS version. That means you are replacing windows distribution
>> files
>> > > with OS/2 versions in order to make it work, which is not what was
>> claimed
>> > > (that retail unmodified Windows 3.1 ran in a VDM).
>> >
>> > Himem.sys was a part of DOS, not Win3.1. Try again.
>>
>> Yes, it is. But Windows shipped a different version, and when you install
>> Windows, it changes your config.sys to point to the version in the windows
>> directory.
>>
>> Try again.
>
>So how come even this morning I was able to run a shop-bought copy of
>Windows 3.1 in an OS/2 (Warp 3) VDM without even knowing at that point
>about the himem.sys file that was supposed to have been changed?
>
>Karel Jansens
>jansens_at_attglobal_dot_net
An OS/2 user! I thought they'd all died off. Anyway, I wanted to let
the group know that I installed Warp 4 on my machine the other day
(i810, someodd-brand ethernet with OS2 drivers(!!), unsupported sound
(C-Media 8770? Not 8330; I found those drivers at Hobbes), and C533.
I can't stand it. It's slow, crashed every time I turned around
(really! The mouse would move and work, but there was no response
from the desktop or the keyboard's ctrl-esc, tho c-a-d did reset the
machine correctly), and geez, the driver and fixpack upgrade process
is a -nightmare-. WebExplorer 1.2 is bundled with the OS, and it's so
old it can't navigate IBM's site correctly anymore, so I downloaded
all of the fixpacks (fp13, actually) and such from the site on the NT
box, then FTP'd them to the OS/2 box. Very annoying - especially
since Netscape Nav. requires FixPack 5 - how do you get it if you
can't get a browser that can navigate IBM's site? Aggh! That was
just the beginning - I then spent hours trying to get the fixpack
installed without manually copying 13 disks to floppy. Finally found
a util to help with that, and so got FP13 installed. Then tried to
install Intel's i810 drivers; was told intel.dsc in c:/os2/install was
corrupt or out of date; gave up on i810 drivers; got IBM's SDD7.xSE
drivers; installed them; only supported 800x600x65k and
1024x768x256(!) as highest resolutions (boggle!) so I (unhappily)
stuck with 1024x768x256. Changing resolution requires a reset
(gasp!). Anyway, then I downloaded Netscape 4.61 and got the
web-update feature working (not half bad, but IBM *really* needs to
work on user-friendlyness; I can't *imagine* a normal user putting up
with this crap) and updated the device drivers (a seperate
fixpack...sigh) and such. And all that's -after- I got Warp 4
installed; it appears IBM's standard Warp 4 CD installer images don't
support hard drives > 4.3G, and mine's an 8G, so I had problems with
that, too. Amazing! IBM tech support, of course, was clueless
(granted, I just e-mailed them, but I made it clear what I needed),
and thanks to the support on here (c.s.m.advo) I found someone to help
find the 2 updated install images, but good Lord; who would ever do
this when you can get Win98/Win2000 going and working correctly at the
drop of a hat?
MS's update process is far, far superior. The installation process is
also far, far superior - for Win2k Pro, it's almost to the point where
you stick in the CD, boot, and then come back half an hour later and
it's all done.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: An honest attempt
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:38:06 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell) wrote in
<8ghgk4$1rkc$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>This is extremely odd because for xterm to open its window you must
>have DISPLAY set correctly. However, if you have DISPLAY set when
>you execute linuxconf it will open its own window and run in GUI
>mode unless you specify --text on the command line.
>
>Let's start at the beginning. Did you do a normal install of
>Mandrake 7.0 or is this an upgrade from something earlier?
>Are you using the drakconf icon/menu or some other way to
>start linuxconf? What happens if you just type
>linuxconf
>as a command in an xterm window? If it doesn't open its
>own GUI window, what does 'echo $DISPLAY' show? What if
>you do 'linuxconf --gui'?
It has nothing to do with DISPLAY. It's because I didn't install Gnome,
only KDE, naturally assuming it was a complete desktop - it isn't. You need
both Gnome and KDE installed for all the 'shiny' GUI apps. Bloated or what?
Pete
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Goodwin's Law invoked - Thread now dead (was Re: Would a M$ Voluntary
Split Save It?)
From: Mayor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:39:14 -0700
In article <0_WW4.10747$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Mayor writes:
>
>>> Christopher Smith writes:
>
>>>>>> We sic Tholen onto you.
>
>>>>> Who is "we"?
>
>>>> We is us.
>
>>> Who is "us"?
>
>> Us is "we", obviously.
>
>Classic circular reasoning.
>
If A=B does not B=A?
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
------------------------------
Subject: Installing Linux Mandrake 7.0
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:42:41 GMT
Here's a quick report on installing Linux Mandrake 7.0 on my main PC:
PII-400MHz with 128MBytes of RAM, Riva TNT, AHA2940 SCSI, ESS Maestro
2E, Netgear card, US Sportster Flash modem.
Here are the things that failed to work:
BST messed up - I had to reset the clock.
Sound does not work; I get buzzing from my ESS Maestro 2E. This is a PCI
card in my system. Works on Windows 98 SE.
Epson Stylus 640 Printer does not work, I get garbage. Works on Windows 98
SE.
NetGear network configured but does not work. Works on Windows 98 SE.
LinuxConfig now is GUI (because I installed Gnome as well as KDE).
Kppp works.
Fonts look terrible (but they always did on X - where's font anti
aliasing?)
Pete.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Goodwin's Law invoked - Thread now dead (was Re: Would a M$ Voluntary
Split Save It?)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:44:33 GMT
Mayor writes:
>>>> Christopher Smith writes:
>>>>>>> We sic Tholen onto you.
>>>>>> Who is "we"?
>>>>> We is us.
>>>> Who is "us"?
>>> Us is "we", obviously.
>> Classic circular reasoning.
> If A=B does not B=A?
Typical inappropriate analogy. I was doing the equivalent of asking
for the value of A. Your response does nothing to provide me with that
value.
------------------------------
From: Josiah Fizer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Goodwin's Law invoked - Thread now dead (was Re: Would a M$ Voluntary
Split Save It?)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:44:17 -0700
Mayor wrote:
> In article <0_WW4.10747$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >Mayor writes:
> >
> >>> Christopher Smith writes:
> >
> >>>>>> We sic Tholen onto you.
> >
> >>>>> Who is "we"?
> >
> >>>> We is us.
> >
> >>> Who is "us"?
> >
> >> Us is "we", obviously.
> >
> >Classic circular reasoning.
> >
> If A=B does not B=A?
>
Nope. Square = Rectange but Rectangle != Square, or at least not all the time.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: how to enter a bug report against linux?
Date: 24 May 2000 16:55:17 -0500
In article <8ghffc$l6s$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Peter T. Breuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>: This is fine for the handful of people who are working to solve
>: current bugs. It is not so fine for the millions of people who
>: are trying to work around what should be well understood bugs
>: in released versions.
>
>They wouldn't know a bug if it bit them in the nose and deleted every file
>whose name ends in "e".
Beg your pardon? Do you think no one cared about the e2fs bugs
causing data to be lost on systems running 2.2.7 (or so, it is
hard to get good info) to 2.2.10 kernels?
>It's the kernel developers and maintainers who
>are interested in the bugs ,and they're interested in _getting_ bug
>reports, because that's the hard bit.
Then a central repository would be a good thing.
>: This is irrelevant to someone whose system has to work now.
>
>They contact the newsgroup defence line for their distro. Kernel
>list lurkers often answer there, if required, but 9999 times out of
>ten thousand, they are looking at an application bug or a distro bug
>or a configuration bug.
Nice try. How about NFS?
>:>It is very hard to locate or even describe a kernel bug.
>
>: Again, a correct description is only relevant to a couple of
>: people. The rest of the world just needs to know what circumstances
>: break what thing, how to avoid it, and when it is fixed so they
>: can stop taking those measures to avoid it.
>
>You miss my point. I am saying that a kernel bug is INTRINSICALLY hard
>to define. How do you know if the kernel is wrong? What is the standard
>against which you are measuring it?
The usual practice is to build regression tests for as much as
possible so you actually have an answer for this. The people
doing bug tracking then can also tell when it is fixed and
close the problem.
>It might be a legitimate behaviour,
>and it might be the application that is broken. Nobody except a real
>real expert can tell, and even then it's only an opinion. Lusers have
>not a hope.
Can you imagine the response if this particular comment appeared
in a Microsoft knowlege base?
>: It should never be necessary for a developer to tell someone else
>: how to work around bugs. That is the real reason that bug tracking
>
>Sure it should. Do you think they like sitting around in a cubicle all
>day? Go 'way. You're no fun.
I think you underestimate the number of people who need this kind
of answer or the time it would take to supply the correct ones.
>: And this is the list that you are suggesting that end users or
>: administrators would use to see if a bug is already known?
>
>You are purloining my words and selling them cheaply, while mixing
>my aphorisms ... I am telling you that the end users can go dance in
>hell, because you have a straw man there.
Great. Just don't suggest Linux as an alternative to supported
systems without letting people know what they are getting into.
I happen to enjoy a challenge myself, but that isn't true for
everyone.
>There is no way a luser can
>find or recognize a kernel bug that hasn't already been dealt with on
>their distros newsgroups.
Hmmm...
>If they're real interested they can sign up to
>the list or browse archives on deja. At several hundred mails a day,
>they'll be looking till kingdom come! If they're less interested they
>can ask on a newsgroup, and let somebody who is filtering the stuff
>through his brain answer. And they can check the newsgroup archives
>too! Have a look at c.o.l.s. If they're really sure enough of
>themselves to think they have detected a bug, they can post the mailing
>list or the maintainer concerned. It is usually polite to post the list
>first to get general feedback. If the resulting furore gets loud enough
>the maintainer will pick it out of the kernel list noise and come
>looking for you.
Do you mind if I quote this the next time someone asks if Linux
is suitable for some particular job?
>Some lists are low volume. The eepro100 lists for example generally
>spurt at up to about 10 a day, and then are silent for a while. Depends
>on whether some interesting new chip/bug has been found. Lot's of
>the eepro100 traffic actually turns up on the kernel list, for
>"complicated" reasons involving various personalities. One can browse
>those lists archives easily. And of course you can just read the driver
>source comments and the web pages to see the bug history.
Once upon a time I tried to run a windows program under VMWare
that listened to a network broadcast. It didn't work. Why
was it impossible at the time for me to find out that there
was a problem with the eepro100 and multicasts and thus
didn't have anything to do with VMWare? (I only know now because
I noticed the fix mentioned in a changelog sometime since, and
it does work correctly now).
>If you volunteer to host a bugtracker, btw, everyone will be happy.
>It's no skin off anyone's back. But getting people to actually
>use it is a social problem you should solve!
OK, the fact that no one wants to do it is a legitimate issue for
an all-volunteer effort. But you could have admitted that in
the first place instead of trying to claim that it is not
needed or wanted.
>The plain fact is that
>point bugs are found and solved in hours .. way faster than a
>bug tracking system can get in on.
How many releases contained the e2fs bug? I don't think any
2.2.x kernel has had kernel NFS right. Bugs are going to crop up
everywhere and people have to know about them to avoid and
work around the problems.
>And the n-n communication is part of
>that. It's Linus' "all bugs are visible to many eyes" line. Put
>up a bugtrack system and you reduce the coommunication to n-1. You
>isolate the developers from each other. That's no good.
Just the opposite. I generally assume that there are enough other
people reporting bugs and just try to work around them. If there
were a handy way to see the known bugs for any version, I would
know when I hit something new and go to the effort of reporting it.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 22:02:05 GMT
"Anthony W. Youngman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >> I am led to believe (in other words I may well be wrong...) that rpms
> >> basically have a required/not-required status. If the system MAY require
> >> a package, then either it is flagged as required and the system tries to
> >> make you install it, or it's not flagged and gets ignored.
> >Well, technically, some is either required or it isn't. If you're
> >right (I have no idea), the problem seems to be more on the package
> >maintainer's end, rather than the rpm developer's end.
> But you're ignoring the example packages I (deliberately) chose ...
> If I have an ISDN card, then I *NEED* ISDN4LINUX, if I don't then it's a
> waste of space. Same with a sound card and OSS.
You *need* it? As in, you won't be able to use your system at all
unless you have it?
I'm deliberately choosing a black-and-white perspective here, because
you're saying that's what rpm has. But it's not totally unjustified;
raw ISDN support is done in the kernel, correct? If so, should the
package manager communicate with the kernel to determine if a package
should be required?
Really, it seems clear to me that ISDN4LINUX and OSS are not
required. They are useful if you have the appropriate hardware, but
if not having them doesn't break your system, then they just aren't
needed. I can think of lots of reasons not to use OSS even if you
have a sound card. The case is weaker for ISDN - because no
computers, to my knowledge, ship with it installed - but maybe one
could still be made.
Note that your suggestion (marking something "optional") is
practically identical to marking something not-required, except for
package grouping. Optional packages aren't installed by default, so
you have to select them manually. Not-required packages aren't
installed by default, so you have to select them manually. The same
degree of effort is involved in both.
> If that hardware is present, then those packages are REQUIRED. If the
> hardware isn't there then those packages are a waste of space (and on
> the system I was complaining about, it was more than 1% of the available
> disk space for ISDN4LINUX alone - that's space I can't spare).
Well, you can always remove them. I see your complaint, though.
> As somebody else pointed out, rpms can't have conditional dependency.
> Either it's flagged as "required" and I scream blue murder because the
> basic install on my mum's pc crashes with a "disk full", or it's flagged
> as "not required" and I scream blue murder because it doesn't install on
> the office server and I need it.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here, just on technical
reasons. To implement the kind of conditional dependency you want
(which Debian tries to do and screws up royally [1]), you'd need help from
the kernel. It could certainly be done, but I don't like the idea of
tying rpm or dpkg or whatever to a specific kernel.
Perhaps a separate program which *is* tied to a specific kernel and
reports on what hardware is installed? It'd be really simple; its
only job would be to get /proc/pci and friends in an
architecture-independent format. This could also be used in the
install process to autoselect some modules the user is likely to want.
--
Eric P. McCoy ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
non-combatant, n. A dead Quaker.
- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
[1] Having two separate "enlightenment" and "enlightenment-nosound"
packages that differ only in their dependencies is, in my opinion,
broken packaging.
------------------------------
From: Mig Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Installing Linux Mandrake 7.0
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 00:06:17 +0200
I dont believe you.. We have done a dusin or so installs of Mandrake,
Redhat and Corel on different machines and never encountered a problem.
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