Linux-Advocacy Digest #185, Volume #28 Wed, 2 Aug 00 16:13:08 EDT
Contents:
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: What are all you nix trolls doing in the WINDOWS advocacy list? (Aaron Ginn)
Re: Linux = Yet Another Unix (bgeer)
Re: 11 Linux features I care about (was: 10 Linux "features" nobody cares about.)
(ben)
Re: Is there such a thing as a free lunch?
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (Perry Pip)
Re: If Microsoft starts renting apps (Nathaniel Jay Lee)
Re: Is there such a thing as a free lunch? (Perry Pip)
Re: The Dream World of Linux Zealots (Andres Soolo)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Am I the only one that finds this just a little scary? ("Anthony D. Tribelli")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 13:53:18 -0500
On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 17:05:04 GMT, Chad Irby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> Seems like an amazing amount of trouble when simply buying a Win98
>> machine in the first place is really what the customer wants....
>
>"Wants"
>
>or
>
>"Buys because that's what everyone else is doing."
Both, for better or worse, depending on where you are technically, can
be very good reasons.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 13:53:57 -0500
On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 17:06:10 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] () wrote:
>On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:54:01 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>On Tue, 01 Aug 2000 21:32:36 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] () wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 01 Aug 2000 18:31:23 GMT, Chris Wenham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell) writes:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Quicken2000 could be bundled with the machine and running
>>>>> >>>> via vmware or wine. Ardhi bundled a Mac version of Quicken
>>>>> >>>> with Executor for awhile.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>/sarcasm
>>>>> >>>Yeah, that would sell *really* well.
>>>>> >>>/sarcasm off
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> It all depends on how transparently it is done.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Maybe in a few years, but not today.
>>>>>
>>>>> VMWare runs everything just about perfectly. If it were just a
>>>>> bit cheaper I could see vendors bundling it, especially now that
>>>>> most machines have plenty of disk space.
>>>>
>>>> Would Intuit provide support to a customer running Quicken in VMWare?
>>>
>>> Would Intuit provide meaningful support otherwise?
>>
>>Sure.
>>
>>>[deletia]
>>>
>>> 'support' is really an absurd feature when it comes to
>>> consumer computing.
>>
>>How so?
>
> Companies that don't want to waste the time or the money on you.
> TEch support people that are no more than people willing to read
> the manuals and are just paid to answer the phone for calls from
> people not willing ot read the manual. TEch support people that
> aren't even that bright and just drone off of a script.
>
> I never bother with the first tier of support drones for exactly
> that reason. Niether do any of my colleagues in or out of MIS,
> regardless of the service level involved.
I know plenty of people who'd rather pay $.15 per minute to speak with
someone rather than read the manuals.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 13:58:22 -0500
On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 17:10:49 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] () wrote:
>On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:54:05 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>On Tue, 01 Aug 2000 23:26:45 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] () wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 01 Aug 2000 17:45:19 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>On Tue, 01 Aug 2000 20:17:02 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article
>>>>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:22:26 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >In article
>>>>>> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>>>>>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>>>> >> On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:09:17 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] () wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >-- snip --
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> > How are they going to tell? How would they know the difference
>>>>>> >> > between an efx win32 variant and some Window Manager variant?
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> They'll ask the salesdroid - Can I run Quicken 2000 on this? get
>>>>>> >> an answer of "no" and immediately move on to a PC that can do so.
>>>>>> >> Salesdroid soon has enough of this and stops pushing Linux box,
>>>>>> >> figuring (correctly) that people would rather pay $50 more or so
>>>>>> >> for a WinXX box that can run their software.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >A "salesdroid" would probably react as you indicate, but someone even
>>>>>> >the least bit knowledgeable as a sales*person* would reply, "it *can*
>>>>>> >run Quicken using an add-on called Wine, but there are alternatives,
>>>>>> >such as GNUCash which may actually work better for you. For example,
>>>>>> >if
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ROTFL! In a consumer box? You're kidding, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The "salesperson" wouldn't be a salesperson at CUSA if he knew all of
>>>>>> that - he'd be doing computer support and making 2x as much $$.
>>>>>
>>>>>Go ahead and laugh. The point is that a pre-loaded and pre-configured
>>>>>Linux box could very well address the hypothetical scenario which
>>>>>***YOU*** came up with, your snottiness notwithstanding.
>>>>
>>>>No way. Not in such a way that anyone new to computers could figure
>>>>out.
>>>
>>> Such a person would have equal trouble with WinDOS.
>>
>>Already installed and configured. Nothing to do but turn it on.
>
> The same would be true of the Linux box, or BeOS box, or MacOS box.
Except that we're talking about a Linux box with Quicken on it, and an
unknown Windows emulator, which increases the complexity of the
product quite a bit. And just who's going to support all of this
stuff, anyway?
>>
>>> WIMP under Linux is no different than WIMP under DOS or WIMP
>>> under MacOS or WIMP under GEM.
>>
>>Uh...no. The Macsters will strongly disagree with that one, and I've
>>got to also. The Linux GUI isn't up to MacOS standards, much less
>
> What standards?
"Levels".
>>Win2k standards. It just isn't there yet.
>>
>
> Be specific or dont bother.
> Your claims are entirely without merit.
Because I think the Linux KDE and Gnome GUIs have a long, long way to
go before they reach MacOS or Win2k levels of usability? Somehow I
*really* doubt I'm in the minority on this one. Linux GUI is hardly
as good as MacOS or 2k.
>>>>>> >you prefer to use double-entry, GNUCash supports it. And you won't
>>>>>> >have to buy a new version every year; just download a new version
>>>>>> >when you want for free." Then the sales*person* could do a demo of
>>>>>> >exporting a Quicken account onto a floppy and importing into GNUCash,
>>>>>> >just to illustrate how painless it can be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL. That's a riot. And you expect a normal retail customer (not a
>>>>>> computergeek) to use that?
>>>>>
>>>>>I see you fail to give a concrete example of why not. You just assume
>>>>>that Joe and Jane can't handle using a floppy disk. I can only wonder
>>>>>why.
>>>>
>>>>It's not the floppy disk bit that I am suggesting wouldn't be done.
>>>>
>>>>>> Where's the support telephone number when they can't get it working?
>>>>>
>>>>>In the documentation that comes with the box. Or must you always be led
>>>>>by the hand?
>>>>
>>>>I see. So GnuCash has a support line now? Face it - people have a
>>>
>>> Can we get a testimonial from the Intuit support line?
>>
>>Can we get you to acknowledge that it exists and stands ready to help
>>people?
>
> Nope.
That's unfortunate, but it's quite true that it's ready to help
people.
> It is a cost center for a company that wants to minimize such things.
Yep, but that in no way invalidates the point.
>[deletia]
>>>>huge comfort level with certain applications, and by and large they
>>>>don't run under Linux.
>>>
>>> That depends on the particular situation.
>>>
>>> Besides, you started out your response speaking of a 'clean slate'
>>> end user and now have switched to a 'legacy' end user as it suits
>>> you.
>>
>>Were we not talking about Quicken? Face it - no matter who you talk
>>about, they'll have some Windows experience, and zero Linux
>>experience. Linux is still an OS for the technogeek.
>>
>
> It doesn't matter. The interfaces are the same. The relevant
> issue would be applications experience, not windows experience.
> Quicken or WordPerfect or FreeAmp or Alpha Centauri on Linux
> would be the same thign for them as it would be under Windows.
>
> Besides, even Microsoft confounds the user every now and again
> with gratuitous user interface changes.
I wish you were right, but the complete lack of commercial success for
Linux on the home user desktop tells me you aren't.
>>>>>> >The point here is that what you describe is the network effect of a
>>>>>> >monopoly, and what I have provided is a fresh perspective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or I'm being realistic in what a normal customer would expect and
>>>>>> would purchase, and you aren't.
>>>>>
>>>>>No, you are locked into MS-Think and I'm not.
>>>>
>>>>Me? No. Normal retail customers. The type of people you're talking
>>>>about are computergeeks, and I don't suggest they can't run Linux.
>>>
>>> WIMP is just WIMP, even under Unix.
>>
>>We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
>
> Then provide an actual argument rather than blind faith.
Like "WIMP is just a WIMP" as an argument? C'mon - you're telling me
the Linux GUI is as good as the MacOS or 2k GUI, and you expect anyone
to take you seriously? I've *USED* Helix-Code Gnome, and that's said
to be the best Linux has. It stinks compared to MacOS or 2k.
------------------------------
From: Aaron Ginn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: What are all you nix trolls doing in the WINDOWS advocacy list?
Date: 02 Aug 2000 11:27:44 -0700
Aaron Ginn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> There are more COMNA crossposters than COLA crossposters, IMO. COMNA
> has the crossposting king in drestin black (although after the beating
> he's' taken thus far in the 'Linux can physically destroy your hard
> drive!' thread, maybe he'll think twice about it next time. ;)
On that same note: whatever happened to this, Drestin?
http://x75.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/threadmsg_ct.xp?AN=542775472.1&mhitnum=0&CONTEXT=965241154.44105758
--
Aaron J. Ginn Motorola SPS
Phone: (480) 814-4463 SemiCustom Solutions
Fax: (480) 814-4058 1300 N. Alma School Rd.
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Chandler, AZ 85226
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (bgeer)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.alpha
Subject: Re: Linux = Yet Another Unix
Date: 2 Aug 2000 13:07:39 -0600
>>> Unix has been around for 30 years and has not "revolutionized" the computer
>>> world. It never will because the Unix world is run by cultists rather than
>>> business people.
Unix cultists brought us more window configurability than we can assimilate.
Unix cultists brought us remote login.
Unix cultists brought us UDP, TCP, & IP.
Unix cultists brought us the Internet, email, usenet, & the Web.
Unix cultists brought us system & network security.
Unix cultists brought us systems that don't need rebooting.
Unix cultists brought us free software.
Windows people brought us unconfigurable window managers.
Windows people brought us local-only login
Windows people brought us program virus susceptibility.
Windows people brought us document virus susceptibility.
Windows people brought us email virus susceptibility.
Windows people brought us SMB protocol.
Windows people tought us what system & network insecurity really means.
Windows people tought us the "three-finger salute" & what "BSD" means.
Windows people tought us how to buy bug fix updates for full retail price.
Windows people didn't learn from Unix cultists.
Windows people are business people.
--
<> Robert Geer & Donna Tomky | * <>
<> [EMAIL PROTECTED] | _o * o * o <>
<> [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -\<, * <\ </L <>
<> Salt Lake City, Utah USA | O/ O __ /__, /> <>
------------------------------
From: ben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 11 Linux features I care about (was: 10 Linux "features" nobody cares
about.)
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 19:00:47 GMT
In article <8knhbg$4fb$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Stuart Fox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8klulq$gp4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > I was going to post a humorous reply to this, but then I realized it
> > would be attacked by a bunch of losers defending a dying operating
> > system from a has-been company run by a geek and changed my mind.
>
> I'm sure this will probably start a whole set of Linus is geekier than
Bill
> Gates discussions...
>
>
hmmm...bill calls himself the ultimate hacker..and linus calls himself
the ultimate programmer. i've heard bill doesn't know crap about coding
or anything, certainly not about real hacking and real hackers. linus
has the kernel to back him up. what did bill code? hell, if i did
code M$, i'd be saying i didn't code anything, would you want to
be responsible for that?...how bloated is it?....hmmmm...i'll have to
get back to you when i can make it past the nonsense. free system
resources my ass!!!!
ben (yeah yeah excuse my windoze..im at work)
--
refuse to crawl
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Crossposted-To:
comp.infosystems.gis,comp.infosystems.www.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Is there such a thing as a free lunch?
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 19:06:29 GMT
On 2 Aug 2000 18:38:06 GMT, Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 16:45:06 GMT,
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>On 2 Aug 2000 14:07:58 GMT, Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 08:30:52 -0500,
>>>Nathaniel Jay Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>scaddenp wrote:
>>[deletia]
>>>>while it isn't completely 'free' altogether, it is free other than the
>>>>time that is spent by the developers when they could be doing other
>>>>things (see above).
>>>
>>>And where people in the Government have been involved in free
>>>software, it has been for thier own purposes. For example, NASA's
>>>Beowulf project has saved the taxpayers hundreds of millions in
>>>supercomputing costs. Compared to that, the cost of them giving back a
>>>few device drivers to the Linux community is minimal.
>>
>> They needed those device drivers anyways...
>
>That's basically my point. Except that....
>
>> The 'cost' would have been incurred.
>
>...In this case Donald Becker has gone beyond the needs for beowulf
>and provided a good deal of general ethernet driver support for the
>Linux kernel:
It's hard to make a distributed computing solution without a network.
[deletia]
>That's 40 different network drivers. Certainly more than what is
>needed for a beowulf, unless you are building an extremely
>heterogenous one. Nonetheless, the cost is still much less than what
>Linux has saved them.
It could entirely depend on the sort of budget involved and
what kind of spare parts you have on hand. More cards supported
means that you have better options choosing components and
reusing spare parts.
Also, the them in this instance is more than just the department
that Becker works for.
Plus, Becker's 'excessive' efforts likely enhance his own skills
and understanding of components that would effect his own work
as well as possibly allow him to drive development (quite possibly
other people's efforts) in directions more beneficial to his
own project.
Self-interest can pop up in the oddest places.
--
Finding an alternative should not be like seeking out the holy grail.
That is the whole damn point of capitalism.
|||
/ | \
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 19:09:19 GMT
On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 13:53:57 -0500,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>> 'support' is really an absurd feature when it comes to
>>>> consumer computing.
>>>
>>>How so?
>>
>> Companies that don't want to waste the time or the money on you.
>> TEch support people that are no more than people willing to read
>> the manuals and are just paid to answer the phone for calls from
>> people not willing ot read the manual. TEch support people that
>> aren't even that bright and just drone off of a script.
>>
>> I never bother with the first tier of support drones for exactly
>> that reason. Niether do any of my colleagues in or out of MIS,
>> regardless of the service level involved.
>
>I know plenty of people who'd rather pay $.15 per minute to speak with
>someone rather than read the manuals.
$.15 per minute??
$.15 per minute == $9.00 per hour. Who works for that wage?? You must
be getting some pretty sharp tech's for $9.00 per hour...huh?? Hell,
telco charges are more than that in most cases. If you are getting
what you think is usefull tech support from someone who makes $9.00
per hour then you must be worth even less.
Perry
------------------------------
From: Nathaniel Jay Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: If Microsoft starts renting apps
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 14:04:17 -0500
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 13:15:13 -0500, Nathaniel Jay Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 03:55:31 -0500, gLiTcH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Nathaniel Jay Lee wrote:
> >> >> I know I'll get booed, but what the hell:
> >> >>
> >> >> Cause the whore is a pro, and probably knows how to do things that your
> >> >> friend providing free sex doesn't. Of course, these are the things that
> >> >> cause heart-attacks and strokes (hmmm, I drew the analogy to Windows
> >> >> even better than I thought I could). And let's not forget the great
> >> >> array of diseases provided by the whore.
> >> >>
> >>
> >> The only problem with this is the fact that the whore is a
> >> businessman.
> >
> >Um, the only problem? Come now Jedi, surely you didn't think I meant
> >that heart-attacks, strokes and 'the great array of diseases provided by
> >the whore' were meant as good things? Of course, I guess there are some
> >that might see those as good things...
>
> The disease part is avoidable.
>
> My response disputes the Heart Attack and Stroke bits.
OK, shall we now fight over what was meant as a joke?
Nah, I got worse things to do with my time, er I mean...
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nathaniel Jay Lee
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip)
Crossposted-To:
comp.infosystems.gis,comp.infosystems.www.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Is there such a thing as a free lunch?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 19:26:22 GMT
On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 19:06:29 GMT,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On 2 Aug 2000 18:38:06 GMT, Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 16:45:06 GMT,
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>On 2 Aug 2000 14:07:58 GMT, Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 08:30:52 -0500,
>>>>Nathaniel Jay Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>>scaddenp wrote:
>>>[deletia]
>>>>>while it isn't completely 'free' altogether, it is free other than the
>>>>>time that is spent by the developers when they could be doing other
>>>>>things (see above).
>>>>
>>>>And where people in the Government have been involved in free
>>>>software, it has been for thier own purposes. For example, NASA's
>>>>Beowulf project has saved the taxpayers hundreds of millions in
>>>>supercomputing costs. Compared to that, the cost of them giving back a
>>>>few device drivers to the Linux community is minimal.
>>>
>>> They needed those device drivers anyways...
>>
>>That's basically my point. Except that....
>>
>>> The 'cost' would have been incurred.
>>
>>...In this case Donald Becker has gone beyond the needs for beowulf
>>and provided a good deal of general ethernet driver support for the
>>Linux kernel:
>
> It's hard to make a distributed computing solution without a network.
You don't need hundreds of different network cards to build a netowrk,
and that's what those 40 different drivers support.
>[deletia]
>>That's 40 different network drivers. Certainly more than what is
>>needed for a beowulf, unless you are building an extremely
>>heterogenous one. Nonetheless, the cost is still much less than what
>>Linux has saved them.
>
> It could entirely depend on the sort of budget involved and
> what kind of spare parts you have on hand. More cards supported
> means that you have better options choosing components and
> reusing spare parts.
Go to www.beowulf.org and see what they used in their Beowulfs. Only a
few different cards.
>
> Also, the them in this instance is more than just the department
> that Becker works for.
It turns out, just one of them
[perrypip@x38 net]$ grep -li cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov *.c | grep -c .
39
39 of them developed at cesdis, where becker works.
> Plus, Becker's 'excessive' efforts likely enhance his own skills
> and understanding of components that would effect his own work
> as well as possibly allow him to drive development (quite possibly
> other people's efforts) in directions more beneficial to his
> own project.
Yeah...or maybe Becker just wants to be a "nice guy" like Linus and
Alan do. And FWIW, it's part of NASA's charter to provide spin-off
technologies.
> Self-interest can pop up in the oddest places.
Wanting to see one's self as a nice_guy(tm) is a form of
self-interest, isn't it??
Perry
>-- Finding an alternative should not be like seeking out the holy
> grail. > That is the whole damn point of capitalism. > |||
> > / | \ > >
--
Show the code....or hit the road.
Perry Piplani [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Dream World of Linux Zealots
Date: 2 Aug 2000 19:30:11 GMT
Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My Russian tutor was born in Tashkent, Azerbaizhan, attended
> St. Petersburg State University, and stayed there until 1990.
[...]
> "Who are these people? Who do they think they are? Nobody ever
> heard of them."
It may as well be so. Most people in Russia don't even know anything
about the little nations like Yukagiris, Itelmenis, Maris, Kalmyks,
Bashkirians, Nenetzen--and yet all they do exist. (I'm sorry if I've
mistaken with the spelling.) Sadly, almost all people like this in
Russian Federation are about to die out because of the 1890s, 1930s
and 1970s assimilation policies, joblessness and cheap vodka. Some
of them have (or had) developed amazing civilizations. Some of them
were millions before the Soviet Union's expansion.
--
Andres Soolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Bacons not the only thing that's cured by hanging from a string.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: 2 Aug 2000 14:37:13 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Chris Wenham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell) writes:
>
>> But note that it might cost several thousand extra to duplicate
>> the applications software that can be included for free
>> with Linux. The problem with this previously has been that
>> the available apps have been geared towards network services
>> not mainstream desktop office programs. OpenOffice is
>> going to change that, and all the rest will still come
>> along for free.
>
> I see that OpenOffice will also be available for Windows.
Yes, this will also ease the platform transition since the
data files will be identical.
>> Note that this is a temporary situation until the popular
>> programs are all ported to Linux - or they all start
>> originating there.
>
> Yes, but that's a chicken-and-egg problem.
Hence the temporary solution so it is not a problem for
the duration of the porting.
>> That was just a suggestion, but it seems like a reasonable thing
>> for a hardware vendor to build, especially if that are already
>> stuck with one of those deals where they pay for the copy
>> of windows for every box anyway.
>
> I thought that was illegal now? :-)
I thought it was always illegal...
>> > You might get away with it, but I'd personally be looking for some
>> > other way.
>>
>> A fully working WINE would be better.
>
> A feature-par GNUCash would be better yet.
But then you will run across some obscure thing that only runs
under windows and need some way to run it. VMWare or a working
WINE would eliminate that problem.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Anthony D. Tribelli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Am I the only one that finds this just a little scary?
Date: 2 Aug 2000 19:48:44 GMT
Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Anthony D. Tribelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> From the press reports that say "crashed all LAN consoles" and "NT error"
>>
>>"LAN consoles" are the client application programs mentioned in the post
>>you responded to.
>
> application crach != console crash.
WinNT crash != console crash. :-)
>>As far as "NT error" why not take the word of someone who was on the ship
>>and someone who wrote the application programs:
>>
>> http://www.sciam.com/1998/1198issue/1198techbus2.html
>>
>> Others insist that NT was not the culprit. According to Lieutenant
>> Commander Roderick Fraser, who was the chief engineer on board the
>> ship at the time of the incident, the fault was with certain
>> applications that were developed by CAE Electronics in Leesburg, Va.
>> As Harvey McKelvey, former director of navy programs for CAE, admits,
>> "If you want to put a stick in anybody's eye, it should be in ours."
>> But McKelvey adds that the crash would not have happened if the navy
>> had been using a production version of the CAE software, which he
>> asserts has safeguards to prevent the type of failure that occurred.
>
> So he takes responsibility for the bug in his application. That does
> not amount to a claim that NT didn't crash with it.
There is no valid claim that WinNT crashed, that is usenet mythology. If
you don't believe the people who were on the ship, a test platform
actually not an operational ship, or the people who wrote the software
then how about the the peole who broke the story:
http://206.144.247.86/archives/gcn/1998/november23/20.htm
Early speculation was that the problem lay in the Navys use of
Microsoft Windows NT 4.0, an operating system increasingly popular
in the government but not without its problems, as the string of
service packs emanating from Microsoft attest. But it turns out the
problem was bad software design that led a petty officer to crash a
database by entering a zero into a field. He was attempting to
calibrate a valve.
>>> Well the press reports said "crashed all LAN consoles" and "NT
>>> error". And if it was only database clients that crashed, how did the
>>> stop the engines??
>>
>>The server corrupted it's own database and naive client applications
>>needed that database to function properly and to operate equipment.
>
> An engine control loop needs a database?? Please.
Who said "engine control loop"?
The "LAN consoles" and "remote terminals" are used to operate equipment
that controls the engine. Note the reference to "valve" in the above
quotation.
Tony
==================
Tony Tribelli
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