Linux-Advocacy Digest #563, Volume #28 Tue, 22 Aug 00 14:13:07 EDT
Contents:
Re: When it's time to not be nice... (was Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (ZnU)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Linus says Mindcraft was accurate ("Robert Moir")
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (Bob Hauck)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Fragmentation of Linux Community? Yeah, right! (Craig Kelley)
Re: BASIC == Beginners language (Was: Just curious.... (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (ZnU)
Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E. (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Nothing like a SECURE database, is there Bill? (Craig Kelley)
Re: Windows stability: Alternate shells? (Stuart Fox)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (Chad Irby)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: When it's time to not be nice... (was Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:20:33 -0300
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
>
> Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > Oh, I see where this is coming from. I indeed believe people who
> > actually
> > write the code are to be considered with deference by those who only use
> > the software. If you don't like it, fine by me.
>
> Well then your have a problem there. How can you know for certain when you
> are dealing with a programmer and when you are dealing with only a user of
> the software? I for one have been a programmer going back decades and I
> have been a contributer to the Linux code base since near its beginning.
Cool, I respect you for it. So?
> I don't subscribe to you view of programmers being lords and the users being
> peasents. All users, in time will tend to contribute in their own way and
> besides all programmers are users too. Just because some have not reconized
> for their contribution to the codebase and the community, does not mean that
> they have not contributed to the betterment of the both. If there is a
> diconomy forming in the Linux community between contributers and just users,
> it is attitudes like yours that fosters it growth.
There *is* a dicotomy.
> I take the opposie view, I help and encourage neophytes to their efforts to
> join the Linux community. I try to encourage neophytes who have valuable
> skills for the community to contribute. I suppose when I see an untried
> neophyte I see a lord in the making while all you see is another peasent
> ready for the dole of benefiting from the work of the lords.
Yawn. I have written what was, for years, the most newbie-friendly
newsreader available for Linux (say it's not a good program, that's
a different thing). I contribute to the first large software project
in Linux that started a trend towards making linux usable by more
newbies.
I care so much about newbies that I try to make them non-newbies
all the time.
> > I can't even recall the reply, however, I get 500 emails a day, more or
> > less.
> > If you have an issue with something I say in a newsgroup, speak it out
> > in the newsgroup. Or even post the email. I don't care. I don't even
> > think
> > that, had I told you to go fuck yourself on email (which I probably did
> > not)
> > that would show a general contempt for the linux users, only for you.
>
> I have alread described enough of the email and its reply that posting the
> original would add nothing new to the discussion. By the way, If you don't
> recall the email from me or your reply, how come you have just used the same
> to words again here?
I use the words often. I had done so in this very thread already.
> I never did tell *anyone* what your wording was and
> yet you have just used it. Only you and myself, and maybe a postmaster in
> between, knew what you said. Yet here it is again embeded in yout last
> sentence.
And in the message three posts ago in the thread, if you look.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: ZnU <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:14:57 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Aaron R. Kulkis"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ZnU wrote:
> >
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > Eric Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ZnU
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > > The president doesn't create the budget, he only has the
> > > > > > > power to approve it in it's entirety or return it to
> > > > > > > congress, now who has really been creating the budget
> > > > > > > deficit for the past 20 years? And who in the past four
> > > > > > > has managed to turn it (the deficit) around?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If the Republicans did all the work to balance the budget,
> > > > > > why are they trying to damn hard to unbalance it?
> > > > >
> > > > > Are you, ZnU, smoking large amounts of crack before writing
> > > > > to USENET?
> > > >
> > > > Are you really denying this? In just the last few months the
> > > > Republicans have tried to pass two tax cuts that would
> > > > eliminate or significantly reduce the surplus, and Bush wants
> > > > to take things even farther.
> > >
> > > And I suppose the Democrats are just going to let that surplus
> > > sit there reducing the debt, rather than spending it on bigger
> > > government health care and *ahem* Gore's own $500 billion in
> > > proposed tax cuts?
> >
> > Gore has promised to pay off the debt. Bush has not. Of course,
> > it's rather difficult to attack Bush on the issues, since he almost
> > never talks about them....
>
> Paying off the debt is already IN the budget, you moron.
>
> ALL treasury bills have a maturity date. To cannot retire the debt
> any sooner than the maturity dates on the T-bills. To retire the
> debt, all that needs to be done is to refrain from rolling over the
> bonds as they mature.
How will this be possible after the Republicans have starved the
government giving their tax breaks?
> IDIOT!
How can I argue with such persuasive logic?
--
This universe shipped by weight, not volume. Some expansion may have
occurred during shipment.
ZnU <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | <http://znu.dhs.org>
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E.
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:23:20 -0300
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
>
> Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > Bullshit. I didn't say that. Go read the damn thread.
> > Whenever Nathaniel Lee said I was saying that, I said "no
> > I am not saying that, I am saying this other thing".
>
> cancel control messages can sure be handy.
Are you saying I cancelled my own messages? I did not. Prove it
or apologize. In fact, I only have cancelled ONE message in the
years I have been in usenet, and it was not in this year.
> > Here's what I want to say: You don't like the direction linux is going?
> > Work and fix it. It doesn't make any difference if you have contributed
> > in the past or not, really, you still need to work and fix it.
>
> No body has to work to fix any of this, if it was not broken by others
> first. In that case we were talking about somthing that is correct the way
> it is. You seemed to take the position that hey we can break anything we
> like and if you want it fixed, the way it was, then fix it back into working
> order again and don't bother me with your concerns.
Nonsense. The previous version would still be there, so fixing would be
just
a matter of downgrading.
I said, indeed that if you don't like Corel's HW detection, you can
either
not use Corel, or fix it, and I stand behind that.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: "Robert Moir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linus says Mindcraft was accurate
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 18:19:45 +0100
"Tim Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> I'm not talking about conspiracies; you're talking about conspiracies.
> I just read the emails published in open court. Why are you afraid of
> black helicopters? Something we don't know about?
Nope, I'm mocking your paranoia. Subtle difference I know, but still
important.
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E.
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:25:50 -0300
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
>
> Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
> > >
> > > Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > > > I'm game, but be specific, or go fuck yourself.
> > >
> > > Thank you, you have proven my point for me in this issue.
> >
> > Whatever. It's a situation where anything I said would be
> > used against me, right? Fuck yourself is adequate, then.
>
> You proved the point reguarding your attitude by using what now appears to
> be your favorite vulgarity.
My repertoire of english language vulgarities is small.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Reply-To: hauck[at]codem{dot}com
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:22:12 GMT
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:03:44 +1000, Christopher Smith
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>"Bob Hauck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> Here we have a multi-billion dollar market and no one can come up with
>> a competitive product?
>
>It would appear so. Some have done well (IBM, Apple) but ultimately shot
>themselves in the foot.
IBM had help from MS. There was testimony about it, which you
convenently ignore.
Slate, GeoWorks, Digital Research, and many others also got helped
along to their demise or marginalization. Product disparagment,
pre-announcement of products that never ship, exclusive OEM contracts,
cliff pricing, product tying, all are weapons in the MS arsenal of
anti-competitive methods.
>> That seems a bit hard to swallow.
>
>Not really. Software development is still very much an inexact science.
>Microsoft got lucky.
Yes, by being handed a contract from IBM in return for promising
something they did not have.
>> But it must be true, because Microsoft is always right and everyone
>>else is stupid.
>
>Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you had something worthwhile to add.
Oh, sorry, I thought that "MS had done nothing wrong" and "their
competitors were just stupid" was the meat of your argument.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| Codem Systems, Inc.
-| http://www.codem.com/
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E.
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:30:08 -0300
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
>
> Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > Mind you, I would apply just as esily those paragraphs to me as to
> > anyone
> > else: I HAVE been provided a OS for free, now I use it or I don't. I
> > improve it or I don't. I influence its development or I don't. And
> > that's
> > all there is.
>
> Do you mean that your developmental efforts were worthless?
No.
> Linux is free in that we can do as we please with a copy of it. We can
> install it on as many system as we please, we can give away as many copies
> as we please, we don't *have to* pay a monetary price for it. However,
> through our efforts we have earned the Linux OS, so Linux is not a gift to
> the plebs as your statement implies.
Except for perhaps half a dozen people, I'd say we were given the OS.
> > > > I must have missed it. No big deal anyway, since the argument died
> > > > already.
>
> > In the middle, I had reached an agreement with him to let the thread
> > die.
> > If the goal was to make me shut up about it, it was already done, thus
> > it made no difference. No big deal.
>
> As you know that thread did not die at that point after all, it continued on
> for a little but more so your comment cited here was contemporaneous with
> the discussion, which did die latter that same day.
Nice of you to delete the original text.
> The goal was never to make you "shut up", although I do feel that was your
> goal with us.
Nope. Feel free to discuss anything you want. I'd just rather see
the effort spent somewhere else, but it's not my effort, so all I can do
is speak my mind about it.
> The goal on my side of the discussion and at least for my
> part. Was to try to convince you to see reason, in that we had honet
> concerns for the future of Linux, that we have a valid stake in the future
> of Linux, that not all badly implemented ideas are worth fixing sometime it
> is so badly conceived that it better to abandon it than wast time fixing it.
Cool, let's go back to the example: Corel Linux's HW detection thing.
I said "don't use Corel Linux or fix it". Abandoning it was one of
the choices I suggested. We are agreeing.
> I also had the goals of fostering the acceptance in the value of the
> flexibility unix and respect for the human over the hardware.
I appreciate any human over any hardware, no need to convince me at all.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E.
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:31:05 -0300
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
>
> Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
> > >
> > > Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > > I'm game, but be specific, or go fuck yourself.
> > >
> > > Now what did I say the earn a reply with that tone from him?
> >
> > Y9ou said something like that I disrespected the linux user base, or
> > some such. Can't tell, because you sniped it.
>
> Why it that a problem? Can't you read back the thread?
Nope, lame expires.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Fragmentation of Linux Community? Yeah, right!
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 22 Aug 2000 11:25:17 -0600
Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Craig Kelley escribi�:
> >
> > Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > > Craig Kelley escribi�:
> >
> > [snip about linking KDE with Qt in a GPL manner]
> >
> > > > The people who *wrote* the GPL say that.
> > >
> > > Actually, no, if you mean RMS, that is not what he has been
> > > saying lately.
> > >
> > > Lately there has been lots of arguments in newsgroups and
> > > mailing lists about GPL's power to avoid dynamic
> > > linking with non-GPL code. The consensus lately seems to
> > > be that the FSF's position is not obviously right, or
> > > even the opposite.
> >
> > First of all, I agree that it is stupid. I like KDE. (I also like
> > GNOME.) But the FSF have been adamant about this issue, and if RMS
> > has changed positions, I'd like to see what he says now -- so you have
> > a link about this?
>
> Sure.
>
> http://www.debian.org/Lists-Archives/debian-legal-0006/msg00062.html
>
> Mind you, this is not what he actually SAYS in person, or at least
> he didn't bother saying it two weeks ago when I saw him, which made
> him lose some image points for me.
He contradicts himself way too much. Almost everything I have ever
released is under a BSD/Artistic license -- the GPL simply doesn't
make sense (especially when you think about tchrist's "GPL condoms"
which play games with libraries to bypass the GPL).
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: BASIC == Beginners language (Was: Just curious....
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:26:03 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Aaron R. Kulkis
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote
on Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:07:18 -0400
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>Stephen Patterson wrote:
>>
>> BASIC = Beginners All Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code, a language
>> for learning to program.
>
>Unfortunately, due to it's late 1950's precepts, you learn a lot
>of habits which later need to be unlearned.
I'm slightly curious as to what these habits are; I can guess
some of them, though:
- Global variable namespace. (YUCK!)
- Non-declaration of variables before use. (Remember the old joke
"God is real ... unless declared integer"? BASIC's sort of
like that, except there's no IJKLMN convention, thank goodness.)
- GOTO, which can be useful, but more often than not just
ties program flows up in knots. [*] It can also bypass
variable initializations without the BASIC interpreter
even noticing, leading to some bizarre bugs.
- IF ... THEN line# or IF ... GOTO line#.
- Double meaning of '='. Admittedly, I'm not sure I like C/C++'s
'==' (too easy to mistype and overlook in expressions), but at
least the tokenizer doesn't have to know whether it's assigning a
variable or within an expression. (Pascal uses ':=' for assignment,
which might have been better, except that many dialects of BASIC
use ':' as a statement delimiter.)
- Objects? What objects? (VB works around this, admittedly, but
I'm not entirely sure how well.)
- No structures, unless VB slipped them in.
- The original BASICs didn't have #include. I don't know if VB does.
- Apple ][ Basic was actually very bright about tokenization.
Sadly, all subsequent (interpreted) Basics that I know the internal
format of got extremely stupid; at best, the final character of
a word had the 8th bit set. For compiled Basics, of course,
this is less of an issue. (At least Basic is slightly brighter
than FORTRAN's "DO 10 I = 1.10", which is actually a variable
assignment because of the '.' instead of the ',' -- a simple typo.)
- MID$(S$, 5, 1) = "substr" is a slightly unusual construct, although
C++ can do similar silliness by returning a reference.
- Lots of PEEKs and POKEs in older Basic programs -- including writing
directly to the display! Portability? What's that? :-)
- REM, tick, or colon?
- INKEY$ is bad for multitasking systems, as it encourages busywait loops.
- Most BASIC environments contain an IDE. While this isn't too bad,
older environments loaded a user's program into memory rather than read
from a file during execution -- which means that if the IDE crashes,
you're in trouble!
(As an example of how it can be properly done, Visual C++ will save all
files prior to invoking the compiler and linker; I suspect Visual
Basic now does, too. Note that Borland C++ 4.51 did not.)
- Formatting in PRINT statements was hit-or-miss...mostly miss.
Some dialects did have PRINT USING, though.
- The language was never really standardized, AFAIK. I have actually
used the following dialects:
HP 21xx basic (punched paper tape on an 8 kiloword ferrule-core machine!)
Apple ][
Apple ///
IBM's built-in BASIC in the original PC
GW-BASIC
Amiga ABASIC
Amiga/Microsoft AmigaBasic
and know of the following:
Chipmunk
Visual Basic
TRS-80
and they're all very different. (The HP basic, for example, only had
26 string variables A$ - Z$, 286 numeric variables
A-Z and A0-Z9, and 26 arrays. I don't remember whether arrays were
multidimensional or not - I doubt it. And yes, it had line numbers.
Apple ][ Basic only had 16-bit integers. Apple /// screwed up the
tokenization AFAIK, but did support floating-point. Visual Basic doesn't
(necessarily?) use line numbers. Amiga ABasic and Amiga/Microsoft
AmigaBasic had lots of hooks for Amiga's shared libraries and graphics --
good luck porting those!)
<Voice="Duke Nukem">
What a mess.
</Voice> :-)
[.sigsnip]
[*] There are proper ways of using GOTO, mostly to get out of a
deeply-nested inner loop. IMO, of course.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
------------------------------
From: ZnU <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:30:15 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "JS/PL"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Chad Irby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > No they are a private company holding a monopoly over their
> > > market. They are a monopoly in the legal sense because if I
> > > decided to sell power in their government granted market
> > > territory, I would be legaly prosecuted, and sued out of
> > > business.
> >
> > Nope.
> >
> > That all changed a few years ago. Now, you can sell electrical
> > power anywhere you want, and in many places, you can even force the
> > power companies to let you use their lines for that purpose.
>
> Nope, just talked to an engineer at my local rural electric service a
> month ago whos line (and service area) ends at the edge of my
> property. They still cannot run a line to my house by law. I must pay
> 12 cents per kw/hr instead of 4 cents because of it.
Utility deregulation isn't the amazing thing you seem to think. It's
expensive to set up a utility, even when the local monopoly is required
to lease you the lines at cost (which is what's typically done, since
expecting competitors to rip up entire cities and install their own
lines is a bit loony). This means that many times the competition just
doesn't develop, but the local monopoly is suddenly free to charge as
much as it likes.
--
This universe shipped by weight, not volume. Some expansion may have
occurred during shipment.
ZnU <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | <http://znu.dhs.org>
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anonymous Wintrolls and Authentic Linvocates - Re: R.E.
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:37:38 -0300
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
>
> Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi�:
> > >
> > > Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > > I'm game, but be specific, or go fuck yourself.
> > >
> > > Now what did I say the earn a reply with that tone from him?
> >
> > Y9ou said something like that I disrespected the linux user base, or
> > some such. Can't tell, because you sniped it.
>
> Why it that a problem? Can't you read back the thread?
Oh, found it:
>Should not one member of the Linux community still show at least basic
>repect to a a fellow member? Our should one member pre-assume the lack of
>contribution on the part of others, and treating the others second as class
>citizens of the Linux community?--As Roberto as done with Nathaniel and
>myself?
I didn't preassume the lack of contribution, since the quote you say
was disrespectful (the "[] gave you a free OS"?) applies to me as
well, and I am a contributor.
A harangue to contribute doesn't assume the other is not a contributor.
I assume you meant "threating the others as second class citizens".
I have no idea if you actually code (and are thus a first class
citizen) or not. I do believe non-coders are not to be considered
as much as coders. I do not believe they should be disrespected.
And if you are so offended because I apparently (yes, I can't remember
it)
sent you an email telling you to go fuck yourself, well, tough cookies.
Want an apology? I usually don't tell people to go fuck themselves
unless
I feel it's needed. If you would be so kind as to quote the email,
I will know if I should apologize or not.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Nothing like a SECURE database, is there Bill?
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 22 Aug 2000 11:32:57 -0600
Stuart Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> In article <8nsh3r$ou4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Leon Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Read it and laugh (or cry, your option):
> >
> > http://slashdot.org/articles/00/08/21/0759251.shtml
> >
> > If you administer an MS-SQL server admin, read it and panic.
> >
> > Who needs to knock Microsoft when you could stand back and watch them
> do
> > such a thorough job themselves? (-: If it didn't have painful
> > consequences, watching some of the BugTraq lists would be better than
> > the Comedy Channel.
>
> Check it out Leon, Oracle ships with default admin passwords, MySQL
> ships with default passwords. If you are so unfamiliar with the
> product that you don't know that the first thing you do is change the
> default password (which is in the documentation), then you have no
> business installing or using it. Period.
Actually, Oracle forces you to set a username and password on
installation.
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
From: Stuart Fox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows stability: Alternate shells?
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:26:29 GMT
In article <8nfcid$6rp$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In article <8n8lut$gg3$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> "Stuart Fox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > "R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:8n8032$8v8$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > In article
> > >
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > > Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 12 Aug 2000 07:32:54 GMT, R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )
> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Furthermore, with operating systems consuming 100
> > > > >megabytes and taking nearly 10 minutes to reboot
>
> > > > Windows 95 on a 486 doesn't even take 10 minutes to reboot.
> > > > Unless you load it with Norton Un-Utilities or such.
>
> There is a HUGE difference between Windows 95 on a 486 (DX/100?)
> and Windows NT Server with SQL Server, IIS, and custom applications.
>
> If you shut down cleanly, it takes about 10 minutes to go through
> all the sanity checks and such.
>
> If you shut down awkwardly, it takes about 20 minutes to finish
> auditing the disks. If you have a very large database (100 gigs or
so)
> the boot-up can take quite a while after an unscheduled system failure
> (panic shut-down).
>
> > > NT Server takes at least 10-20 minutes on a large system.
> >
> > Rubbish. 5 minutes, plus whatever the POST checks
> > take, which on a Compaq can be considerable
>
> I'm probably working with a different class of NT Server than you.
> Typically, these things have rather large databases, complex
> applications, and SCSI/RAID arrays which have to be synchronized.
>
> On some of the really big systems, I have to wait for as much as
> an hour from boot to fully functional availability.
>
I assume you're talking hundreds of gigabytes of database. An Exchange
server with a 15GB database takes around five minutes to start. Are
you saying that it's NT's fault that applications take a long term to
start, or should you be looking at the application itself?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Chad Irby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:04:52 GMT
"JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Chad Irby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > No they are a private company holding a monopoly over their market.
> > > They are a monopoly in the legal sense because if I decided to sell
> > > power in their government granted market territory, I would be
> > > legaly prosecuted, and sued out of business.
> >
> > Nope.
> >
> > That all changed a few years ago. Now, you can sell electrical power
> > anywhere you want, and in many places, you can even force the power
> > companies to let you use their lines for that purpose.
>
> Nope, just talked to an engineer at my local rural electric service a
> month ago whos line (and service area) ends at the edge of my
> property. They still cannot run a line to my house by law. I must pay
> 12 cents per kw/hr instead of 4 cents because of it.
Then you need to make some calls and get a real story from someone who
knows about the law, since the guy you talked to is certainly behind the
times.
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
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