Linux-Advocacy Digest #723, Volume #29 Wed, 18 Oct 00 07:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: KDE starting to stress out a little? (Kobus)
Re: KDE starting to stress out a little? (peter@nntpl)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? ("Weevil")
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? ("Weevil")
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? ("Weevil")
NYC LOCAL: Wednesday 18 October 2000 NYLUG Meeting: Linas Vepstas, head of GNUCash
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Free ISP for Linux? ("NO SPAM")
Why I do use Windows ("Gonzalo Pardo")
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? ("Weevil")
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Richard)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Richard)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Kobus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: KDE starting to stress out a little?
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:07:36 GMT
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> --
> Aaron R. Kulkis
> Unix Systems Engineer
> ICQ # 3056642
>
>
http://directedfire.com/greatgungiveaway/directedfire.referrer.fcgi?2632
>
> H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
> premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
> you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
> you are lazy, stupid people"
>
> I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
> challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
> between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
> Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
>
> J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
> The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
> also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
>
> A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
>
> B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
> method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
> direction that she doesn't like.
>
> C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
>
> D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
> ...despite (D) above.
>
> E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
> her behavior improves.
>
> F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues
against
> adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
>
> G: Knackos...you're a retard.
Reading your sig, I assume that you're not familiar with the usenet
rules?
Your sig should be about 5 lines long, not 36........
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: peter@nntpl
Subject: Re: KDE starting to stress out a little?
Date: 18 Oct 2000 01:31:34 -0700
In article <rX9H5.2438$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Ingemar says...
>
>
Listen moron. did you have to include the whole
long text just to add your one pathetic line response?
What a true idiot. So many stupid people on this earth,
and the internet is just helping them become more stupid.
peter
------------------------------
From: "Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 04:51:41 -0500
T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Said Weevil in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> [...]
> >This scenario was repeated over and over with the large OEMs of the time.
> >It's all there in publically available court documents. A lot of it is
> >online.
>
> But finding the details is a less trivial task than you make it seem,
> Weevil, I have to admit. Could you provide some urls?
>
> [...]
Here's a pretty good starting point:
http://www.drdos.com/fullstory/factstat.html
It's Caldera's Statement of Facts in their case against Microsoft. When
faced with the hundreds of smoking guns Caldera produced in this document,
Microsoft simply bought them off...settled out of court, I mean. The amount
was undisclosed, but most leaks have pegged it at $275 million and up.
My apologies if you've already come across this page.
> --
> T. Max Devlin
> *** The best way to convince another is
> to state your case moderately and
> accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
>
>
> ======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
>
> Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
>
> http://www2.PetitionOnline.com/dejanews/petition.html
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
------------------------------
From: "Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 05:01:28 -0500
JS/PL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>
> > Of course, when Microsoft needs some more upgrade cash, they'll add a
> couple
> > of whistles and call it Windows 3k, or 2003 or whatever marketing comes
up
> > with.
>
> Right now the desktop version is called Whistler, it's the best damn
> operating system known to man, way better than god himself could produce.
>
> I haven't seen it but it probably is, but we'll all just have to wait for
> independent verification of the above statement from ZDNet :-)
LOL. You really *do* have a sense of humor. :)
jwb
------------------------------
From: "Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 05:02:36 -0500
Mike Byrns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Thank you again for supporting all we Windows professionals.
That should be "...all us Windows professionals."
Hope this helps. :)
jwb
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc
Subject: NYC LOCAL: Wednesday 18 October 2000 NYLUG Meeting: Linas Vepstas, head of
GNUCash
Date: 18 Oct 2000 06:12:01 -0400
One the advertising slogans against use of Free OSes on the desktop and in
the home is "There is no Jumbo Office Suite for any Free OS.". This is
false. There is more than one Jumbo Office Suite that runs on Free *n*ces.
Indeed, one of these Jumbo Office Suites is now licensed under the GPL:
http://www.openoffice.org
Another calumny against Free Software runs "But the total costs of Free
Software are higher." This is nonsense, and IBM will generously present a
detailed refutation at this meeting:
A large spread of fine food, all free!
Official NYLUG notice below.
Jay Sulzberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Corresponding Secretary LXNY
LXNY is New York's Free Computing Organization.
http://www.lxny.org
*** New York Linux Users Group October Meeting ***
- NYLUG.org -
Linas Vepstas
Prodigious Hacker and Leader of GNUCash
(Personal Finance Software for Linux)
10/18/00
Wednesday
6:30pm-8:00pm
IBM Headquarters Building
590 Madison Avenue at 57th Street
Check in at lobby for badge and room number
A prodigious programmer with many credits to his name, Linas Vepstas coded
the original S/390 mainframe port and contributed core pieces to the
OpenGL project before launching full time into GNUcash (www.gnucash.org)
The web site relates that Linas...
"... liked what he saw. The GUI was slick, the code was documented
and well structured, and it was all GPL'ed. And so he re-wrote it-
adding cell-widgets to XbaeMatrix, so that the combobox and arrows
would make an even slicker GUI, rewrote the X-Accountant internals
to add double-entry, an account hierarchy, split out a transaction
mini-engine, added support for stocks, and spiffed up the help
menus. This was version 1.0 as of January 1998."
Today, GNUcash is an easy-to-use personal finance application and
full-fledged accounting system that allows you to track bank accounts,
stocks, income and expenses. As quick and intuitive to use as a checkbook
register, it is based on professional accounting principles to ensure
balanced books and accurate reports. Take a look at these sceeenshots:
http://www.gnucash.org/gnome_screenshots.php3
Linas (www.linas.org) will take us through the business model, the
history, the back end and the front end of GNUcash and has asked that you
ask questions. He's coming all the way from Texas, so let's not dissapoint
him! This talk is an entry level discussion with some advanced sidebars.
__________________________
Special Food Announcement!
IBM is setting us up with a catered smorgasbord table. Thanks IBM!
______________
Swag Give-Away
GNUCash cdroms and official NYLUG stickers!
_______________________________
After the Meeting... Stammtisch
Join us around 8:15pm or so at the Typhoon Brewery & Restaurant located
at 22 East 54th Street between Madsion and 5th Aves.
Please Note - we do not have the back room anymore and are currently
reviewing our Stammtisch options. Please give me your suggestions.
What is Stammtisch? http://linuxmafia.com/bale/#stammtisch
______________________________________
Where & When is the NYLUG.org Meeting?
With the generous support of IBM, all regular NY-LUG meetings are held at
the main IBM building at 590 Madison Avenue at 57th Street in mid-town
Manhattan every third Wednesday of the month starting at 6:30pm. All
meetings are free and open to the public.
_____________
Mailing Lists
* nylug-talk
Talk Mailing List for people to contribute and resolve each other's
technical problems.
* nylug-announce
Announce Mailing List for speaker and installfest announcements.
To post a message to the talk mailing list, address it to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_____________
List Archives
The archives are currently down but should be up soon.
________
Contacts
Jim Gleason, President, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Eric Berg, Vice President, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
______________
What is Linux?
http://www.nylug.org/about_linux.html
__________________
What is NYLUG.org?
NYLUG (www.nylug.org) is New York's Linux Users Group supporting all
things Linux and Open Source in the New York metro area. Please feel
free to contact me if you have any questions about the NYLUG.org.
______________
Special Thanks
To everyone who helped to make the July 17th protest in front of the NYC
courthouse a huge success - especially Billy Donahue and Ruben Safir. And
many thanks go to all of the people who travelled down to Washington DC
for the DMCA protest in front of The Library of Congress on May 2nd. Many
thanks also to Rebecca Blake & Lara Kisielewska of Optimum Design (they
co-publish Linux Magazine) for creating our mascot "Tuxi" and to Mark
Andal for the original cabbie idea. Thanks to Ari Jort - core nylugger
whose contributions are too numerous to mention here. Special thanks also
go to Peter Norton and Barry Hughes, NYLUG's lead engineers at LinuxWorld
Expo, and all of the other NYLUGGERS who volunteered. Without you, we
could not have done the show. Good job!
_______________________________________________________________
NYLUG.org: Host LUG Sponsor of LinuxWorld Expo's .Org Pavillion
February 1-4, 2000; Jacob Javits Center, NYC
===============================================================
Jim Gleason VA Linux Systems
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.valinux.com
phone: 212-858-7684 President, New York Linux Users Group
fax: 212-858-7685 http://www.nylug.org
===============================================================
------------------------------
From: "NO SPAM" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: chi.internet
Subject: Re: Free ISP for Linux?
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:13:36 GMT
Has anyone got 1NOL to work with Linux?
NO SPAM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:NzeE5.5334$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Do any of the free ISP's work with Linux? How about with "Wine"? (the
> Windows emulator that comes with some Linux installations).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
From: "Gonzalo Pardo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Why I do use Windows
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:35:06 GMT
I have both (and others) OS's on my machine (I mean Windows
and Linux), and they both are configured to do what I need; that's
what I have found :
1) Windows is by far more unstable (all of us knew that), but is
pretty usable for home using (I switch it on and off every
day, and there are even weeks where I do not see a blue
screen).
2) On the other side, Linux is rock solid (we all knew this one too).
3) Windows without care is insecure to browse the web and staying
connected a long time; I have avoided it by installing a free
firewall
on it (by far worse than ipchains). I share the modem connection with
Windows 98 SE.
4) With Linux I share the connection easier and more stable and have a
rock solid system with no services running and a good firewall
designed
on to it.
5) With Windows I have got plenty of media players to play every
available
format in the market.
6) Linux can barely play every format, and a lot of them are performed by
beta software with a bad performance and too many bugs. One thing I
should say, it plays TV with the AverMedia far better than Windows
does.
7) In Windows I can use Office 2000 what I do not particularly like, but
helps me to read office work; one thing I like a lot is launching
Word 2000
in one second (if second time) or three seconds (if first time).
8) Neither Staroffice 5.2 nor Gnumeric or similars can be used by me for
the things I need. Staroffice is a pain that lasts for more than 20
seconds
to run ... I do not like Java at all.
9) At Windows I have a lot of games (in fact, all of them) and demos to
play
if I want to do it, as well as using encyclopedies, magazine English
courses,
and such crappy stuff that I do not really mind, but I can do it.
10) On Linux I simply can't do it. Using an emulator is not the solution
(at least
in my case) because it goes slowly and the things I really would like
to be
emulated (multimedia and games) are just the more CPU intensive ones.
11) With Windows I have Internet Explorer, Netscape, Opera, Eudora,
Pegasus,
Outlook and Outlook Express and all internet tools I want, even when
they
run slower than Linux ones.
12) At Linux I am stuck with Netscape, Opera is alpha state, there are a
lot of mail
clients (pine, mutt, kmail, xfmail, netscape, ...) that I use, but I
don't like them; to
be honest, they are bad ones for me. The news are other story, I have
inn running
and suck does feed it, then I read with tin and I like it, but find
Outlook Express
better by far.
13) To end, at Windows I have software to run, and some of it is really
powerful, while
other is just stupid, but it can be run.
14) Linux is wonderful, but X11 are crappy for me, and there are no
applications around
to be run, not to talk that the kernel 2.4 is lasting and some
features are really needed
now.
Okay, that's it; don't look disturbing anyone, just pointing that Linux
is a good system,
but that saying 1000 times that it has N applications, does not turn it to
be true since
I do not count vi, vim, emacs, joe, jed as 5 applications, just would say
that Linux has a
text editor (well, so does every OS, that's not remarkable). In the end, I
have to use
Windows even when I would prefer Linux, just because there are no things to
be done
at Linux apart from configuring the system and learning to be an
administrator. As an
example of the millions Linux applications, let's take the GIMP, well ...
ONE, while
at Mac's or Windows world there are several of them apart from GIMP too :-)
Besides
all the work I have to do gets done faster on Windows than on Linux (even
hanging some
times). That's it, Microsoft is a shitty company (perhaps not as shitty as
it is being said),
Windows is an unstable OS (undeniable), but at the end, hell, one can really
work with
it (even when it seems impossible). Linux is a open source OS (perhaps not
as good as
it is being said), Linux is stable (undeniable, but to do what ?), but at
the end, one can
just configure, compile, install, and do administrator stuff on it (well,
and some internetting,
not browsing webs). Linux desperatly needs a web browser as good or better
than Internet
Explorer (and it is being proved that it is not as easy to do it), a
multimedia/gaming library and
a decent mail and news client to be at least some useful to home user ...
not to talk about
applications, yeah, I mean applications, no tools or utilities programmed by
non professionals.
Even at the kernel list, there have been some discussions about the method
Linus uses to develop (without any method at all), and he can do it 'cause
he's
a genious, but what when he become older ? What when someone that's not
as genious and does not know the code as well as he does have to tweak it ?
Well, to end this long troll-falming-post, let's talk about GNOME, for me,
there is
just one word : hypocrite (I just have used an English dictionary ... two
clicks and ...).
------------------------------
From: "Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 05:31:29 -0500
Simon Cooke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8sj5ae$pl0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> Provide one SHRED of proof that "DOS ain't done 'till Lotus won't run" is
> anything more than an anti-Microsoft FUD mantra. I will gladly post that
> line, and the qualifying proof as my signature for the rest of my Usenet
> days if you manage to do so.
>
> Proof that qualifies is any kind of evidence that Microsoft did indeed
> change DOS explicitly so that Lotus would not run, or any kind of order
from
> a Microsoft executive of that form.
>
> I'll be waiting. But I won't hold my breath.
Hmmm...does it have to be Lotus? Would it be OK if it was another product?
jwb
------------------------------
From: Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:51:23 GMT
FM wrote:
> Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Object in the normal sense of the term doesn't exist in programming
> >> languages. It's a metaphor.
>
> >Great, another idiot. And I suppose that the number '2' isn't an object,
> >right? Just a "metaphor".
>
> Number '2' is an abstraction of what it's like to be of two
> things or the second of many. It's not an object. Of course
> for any particular programming language or formal notation,
> one can define an object to include such abstractions.
In the realities of mathematics, abstractions *are* objects.
Concepts exist only in people's minds, objects have an independent
reality; and the number '2' has an independent reality. There is
no "metaphor" involved either in calling the number '2' an object
or in calling a programming language construct an object.
> >Do you also believe like Jedi that there are
> >is a "true" meaning to every word and that anything that comes later is
> >by definition a "metaphor"? Just what the fuck ISN'T a metaphor ??
>
> No, if you are to say something is "the normal sense of the
> word" and it's not in the dictionary, then it's your job to
> produce a sensible definition.
Bullshit. But I guess I just did; an object is a concept with
something other than mental existence attached to it. Numbers
have some mathematical existence. Physical objects have physical
existence. Data structures are patterns of physically existing
entities and thus also have physical existence.
> So a message is not an object. So much for "everything" is
> an object. referring to a message IS an action. Referring to
No it isn't, asshole. Your claiming it is doesn't make it so.
Copying sends messages to the object involved, which sends
messages to the Object Store. And that's where the regress
ends; the Object Store's creation of objects is atomic and
since all computation involved is purely internaldoes it
does *not* involve sending messages outside of itself. In
order to create messages, an object needs a selector (which
it has on hand and copies) and a bunch of parameters (which
it either has on hand and copies or receives and passes).
So the creation of a message can be fully explained in terms
of objects and message sends. The actual sending of messages
is an inherent property of space, it's an axiom of OOP. Big
fucking deal.
The only reason you can even ask whether messages are objects
is because Smalltalk has a high degree of introspection. You
seem to think that imperative languages are more "fundamental"
for the sole reason that they avoid circular definitions and
infinite regress by not having any introspection!!
There are axiomatic concepts in OOP. Too fucking bad. There are
also axiomatic concepts in functional programmnig; just what the
hell is defining a function supposed to mean in terms of functions?
Why don't you explain how the imperative paradigm manages not
to have axiomatic concepts, eh? Or is it the case, as I suspect,
that you'll just end up proving that only assembly exists ???
> an object is ALSO an action. Not specifying how and these are
> related leave out a huge part of what is necessary to specify
> a process. It also shows a lack of understanding on your part
> and vagueness of your definition.
You cretin, it's irrelevant. Users need a model of computation,
OOP provides that. I don't give a shit about implementors.
> Hah, and you forgot to address that your so-called paradigm is
> in fact an extension of the imperative paradigm. And shows
> nothing about how these actions can be abstracted, which means
> it is implicitly procedural as well.
Atoms in functional languages are no more an abstraction over
data in procedural languages than method calls are an abstraction
over procedure calls in OOP. So by your imbecilic criterion,
functional programming is merely an extension of procedural.
> >My point, cretin, is that some languages are vastly more OO than
> >others and considering that Smalltalk has serious flaws as far
> And your vast knowledge of C++ allows you to point out and
> judge those flaws?
It has so many flaws that even a novice to it can point out
dozens. One need not be able to catalogue all of its flaws
to judge it lacking.
> Pick up that book you got all your terminologies from and
> actually read. Even with limited understanding, you might
> actually learn a thing or two. And then ask yourself, what
> part of philosophy is NOT considered metaphysics?
Well, imbecile; moral philosophy, ethics, epistemology ....
> You obviously still can't. Programmers can write code in
> OO if they are provided by the mechanisms necessary for
> OO. And the only true mechanism beyond a decent type
Whenever someone writes "true" it's a sure sign they're
bullshiting. As indeed you are.
> system necessary for the style is runtime polymorphism.
> You obviously didn't understand what I said. If that's
> "low-level" design of the paradigm, it's still all that
> matters to a language.
Obviously not since most C++ losers never write OO code.
By your definition of "necessary" the only thing that
is necessary is Turing completeness and thus one could
write OO code in assembly. Hey, you don't need runtime
polymorphism at all since you can implement it!
> Functional programming can be implemented in purely
> imperative languages, but it doesn't have to be based
> on them. On the other hand, that has nothing to do with
> my objection. The problem is that you don't know how to
> write proper recursive definitions. If message sends
> are atomic, they should be properly labeled as such. On
> the other hand, I can see why you had trouble with that,
> since it involves two more actions leading to it,
> identifying the object and the message. Also, if these
> things are not considered as actions, then you need to
> clarify what actions are and how they relate to the
> process as a whole. Aside from all that, seeing a
> computational process as a series of actions, is quite
> imperative.
Do you think this isn't what I've been saying all along,
imbecile? I've SAID previously that OOP doesn't abstract
away from the procedural paradigm's procedures. I also
said that functional programming doesn't abstract away
from the procedural paradigm's data atoms. But you seem
to think that data abstraction is irrelevant and only
process abstraction "truly matters". You're a moron.
> >Yeah. And just what the fuck do you think "I don't know C++
> >very well" *means*?
>
> That means you aren't qualified in any of the discussions
> regarding C++'s merits.
Another example of your black and white thinking. Funny how
it's always so suspiciously convenient for you.
[deleted tripe]
<yawn> Your own life story?
------------------------------
From: Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:00:36 GMT
FM wrote:
> Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >1) C++/Java dose X, and
> >2) X *must not* be done, therefore
> >3) C++/Java can't possibly be OO
>
> That C++/Java does X contradicts that X *must not* be done.
No, it doesn't. It contradicts only "is not" done,
not /must not/.
> At the very least, you need to qualify #2.
Hardly necessary since anyone with a half-way functioning
brain will be able to grasp my meaning from context.
> Also, that C++/Java does X that must not be done has nothing
> to do with their not being OO. It appears, again, that you're
> treating OO some sort of sacred philosophy. It's possible for
> a really really bad language to break fundamental principles
> left and right and still be OO.
C++/Java break principles of OO as well as fundamental principles
of utility, uniformity and elegance.
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
