Linux-Advocacy Digest #727, Volume #29 Wed, 18 Oct 00 13:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Paul_'Z'_Ewande=A9?=)
Re: New easy to use firewall software
Re: Why I do use Windows
Re: KDE starting to stress out a little? ("Ingemar Lundin")
OFF TOPIC was: Why is MS copying Sun??? (Conspiracist)
Re: KDE starting to stress out a little? (sfcybear)
Re: Why I do use Windows
Re: Why I hate Windows...
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux? (Joseph Dalton)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (T. Max Devlin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:11:26 -0000
On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 15:51:52 +0000, Harry Lewis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>2:1 wrote:
>>
>> Harry Lewis wrote:
>> >
>> > Grant Edwards wrote:
>> > >
>> > > In article <8seufm$c7d$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, MH wrote:
[deletia]
>> The point about latex is that it does the typesetting for you, not the
>> other way round (although you can force it to do what you want).
>>
>> I as a user prefer not to have to worry about typesetting, so I use
>> LaTeX/TeX. I also prefer the much higher quality output.
>>
>> So your right, not everything is a typesetting problem, which is why the
>> task of seting type (what must be done in order to print the thing in
>> any system) is best left to a computer program.
>>
[deletia]
>I agree with what you say, but my point is that, these days, using a
>computer for word processing is all about content management. A good
>word processor will provide you with better facilities for this than a
>program that evolved from a typesetting tool.
Actually, that sounds backwards. Better content management should
be achieved by tools that segregate content from formatting. Tools
like Latex do this more cleanly and produce more easily parsable
output.
--
core error - bus dumped
The reason they're called wisdom teeth is that the experience makes you wise.
A sine curve goes off to infinity, or at least the end of the blackboard.
-- Prof. Steiner
------------------------------
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Paul_'Z'_Ewande=A9?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:11:39 +0200
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a �crit dans le message news:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<SNIP> Some stuff </SNIP>
> >By definition, the API is the documented programming interface which
> >applications use to communicate with another software system (OS or
> >otherwise). Undocumented functions are NOT part of the API; the API is
only
> >the parts which are public.
Hah !
> By definition, the API is the programming interface which applications
> use. Otherwise, it would the DAPI.
I think I'll take Simon's word [Simon happens to be a developer] and mine,
over yours on this one, sorry. :)
> T. Max Devlin
Paul 'Z' Ewande
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: New easy to use firewall software
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:12:20 -0000
On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:29:46 +1000, Chris Sherlock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hey all (especially Claire Lynn),
>
>I have found this great piece of software that is very easy to configure
>your Linux computer behind a firewall using Gnome 1.2 It even sees
>portscans, etc.
>
>It's called firestarter, and it looks brilliant. So brilliant in fact
>that as soon as I get Debian up and running, I am going to run it!
>
>Here is the URL: http://firestarter.sourceforge.net
pmfirewall is pretty good too. It just forgoes being shiny and happy.
[deletia]
--
The meek shall inherit the earth; but by that time there won't be
anything left worth inheriting.
Stult's Report:
Our problems are mostly behind us. What we have to do now is
fight the solutions.
A man was reading The Canterbury Tales one Saturday morning, when his
wife asked "What have you got there?" Replied he, "Just my cup and Chaucer."
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: Why I do use Windows
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:16:38 -0000
On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:32:51 -0400, MH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>This is a terrible reply (argument) to what the poster said in his original
>post.
>Linux advocacy at its finest.
There really wasn't much to reply to previously.
"I simply like foo" really doesn't give anyone to work with.
Whether intended or not, it's classic FUSster practice completely
devoid of detail. Without some clue as to what the particular
person finds wrong with other competing apps, it's rather impossible
to do any sort of point by point comparison.
That's why vague assertions about win32 superiority are so assinine.
[deletia]
--
Are you making all this up as you go along?
Your program is sick! Shoot it and put it out of its memory.
Almost anything derogatory you could say about today's software design
would be accurate.
-- K.E. Iverson
------------------------------
From: "Ingemar Lundin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: KDE starting to stress out a little?
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:27:40 GMT
<peter@nntpl> skrev i meddelandet news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <rX9H5.2438$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Ingemar says...
> >
> >
>
> Listen moron. did you have to include the whole
> long text just to add your one pathetic line response?
>
> What a true idiot. So many stupid people on this earth,
> and the internet is just helping them become more stupid.
have we meat before?
youre a fucking idiot!
*PLONK*
>
> peter
>
>
>
------------------------------
From: Conspiracist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.arch,alt.conspiracy.area51,comp.os.netware.misc,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: OFF TOPIC was: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:34:27 -0700
....and this all relates back to Area 51 how?
How about cancelling the cross posting to the Area 51 group and limiting
it to the alt.computer.geek groups?
------------------------------
From: sfcybear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: KDE starting to stress out a little?
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:16:57 GMT
One person does not the KDE project make. You can not claim that the
whole of KDE project members are stressed based on ONE person.
In article <8sicr8$93u$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Check this out:
>
> http://dot.kde.org/971680096/
>
> With all of the KDE vs GNome stuff going on, and with all the added
> corporate pressures these days, I was starting to wonder if the "Meet
> the folks behind KDE" articles that had been going on lately were part
> of a PR response (along with GPLing everything, trying to get KOffice
> out in time to match OpenOffice, etc.). Is the stress starting to
> affect these guys, you think?
>
> Maybe a KDE Foundation is in order to start adding some internal
> infrastructure (management, office assistants, etc.) to help the
> programmers out a little. Just so long as management doesn't take over
> (grin)...
>
> Meanwhile, still waiting for GNUstep to take over the world after
these
> two giants destroy each other...
>
> -ws
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: Why I do use Windows
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:30:26 -0000
On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:00:11 GMT, Gonzalo Pardo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> So you count all of linux's text editors as 1 app, but all of windows
>> photo-editors as seperate apps.
>
> I think you undestand me, by application I mean application not tool; I
>do not even mean application at the style windows.
You are still redefining terms and it's not clear that the
redefinition ends up being that relevant generally.
>
>> Whatever.
>> I suppose that you count Word and word perfect as seperate apps, whilst
>> counting emacs and vi as 1 app?
>
> I do not think I could count as applications my own scripts, could I ? I
>think Wordperfect has some more code than vi does ...
>
>> I thing OPEN/GL is coming along quite nicely. The only thing I've heard
>> that it's missing is 3d sound.
>
> Is coming does not mean is here ... so is coming Windows stability ...
No, 3D sounds is here already. It's even in shipping product.
Fortunately, it's not the sort of thing that requires a
special purpose coprocessor in order implement effectively.
>
>> I'm happy with netscape news. As for a mial client, I wouldn't give up
>> pine for the world.
>
> Well, I find pine some limited, and even you could find by yourself some
>of them ...
Why?
[deletia]
>> Staroffice is an app evnv if you don't like it (which I do.)
>
> I know it is an application, it counts at Windows world too.
>
>> Wordprefect is an application
>
> Sure, the same that Staroffice, but I do not like Corel approach of using
>wine to run last version, do you count that one as a native application or
>as
>a Windows application running under Linux ?
Under Unix such distinctions tend to get blurred as being
compatible with other vendor's products tends to be norm
rather than the exception.
While aesthetically objecting to CorelOffice, that's not
a real reason to declare it functionally incomplete.
>
>> Abiword is an application
>
> No. It is abandoned. And nowadays it is really alpha.
Actually, it works quite well for the parts that have been
finished so far. That's always the big question: is FOO
feature complete ENOUGH.
>
>> Koffice
>
> Haven't seen a final release, anyway, I count it as an application, even
>a
>bad one.
>
>> Applix,
>
> Application ... do you use it ? Do you feel is a good one ?
You tell us. You tell us what is wrong with it.
[deletia]
--
Allen's Axiom:
When all else fails, read the instructions.
Truth can wait; he's used to it.
Whether you can hear it or not,
The Universe is laughing behind your back.
-- National Lampoon, "Deteriorata"
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: Why I hate Windows...
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:31:32 -0000
On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:17:49 +1300, Gardiner Family <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>except with a nice GUI, unfortunately I am one of those dumb, only use
>console as a last resort types.
What does that "nice GUI" really buy you? Pine isn't exactly
an arcana king when it comes to non-pixel-rendered tools.
>
>matt
>
>Bob Hauck wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:48:35 +1300, Matthew Gardiner
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> >a decent mail client would be one that is a mail client and usenet
>> >client, that is small, fast and feature rich (such as spell checkers).
>>
>> Like...Pine?
>>
>> --
>> -| Bob Hauck
>> -| To Whom You Are Speaking
>> -| http://www.haucks.org/
>
--
Loneliness is a terrible price to pay for independence.
"You shouldn't make my toaster angry."
-- Household security explained in "Johnny Quest"
Q: What do you say to a New Yorker with a job?
A: Big Mac, fries and a Coke, please!
------------------------------
From: Joseph Dalton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Date: 18 Oct 2000 12:33:45 -0400
Harry Lewis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
...
>
> I agree with what you say, but my point is that, these days, using a
> computer for word processing is all about content management. A good
> word processor will provide you with better facilities for this than a
> program that evolved from a typesetting tool.
>
> Harry
I disagree. a so-called "good" word processor may give that appearance
but the reality can be vastly different. Let me quote Neal Stephenson
from "In the Beginning was the Command Line":
<quote>
Sometime in the mid-1980's I attempted to open one of my old,
circa-1985 Word documents using the version of Word then current: 6.0
It didn't work. Word 6.0 did not recognize a document created by an
earlier version of itself. By opening it as a text file, I was able to
recover the sequences of letters that made up the text of the
document. My words were still there. But the formatting had been run
through a log chipper--the words I'd written were interrupted by
spates of empty rectangular boxes and gibberish.
Now, in the context of a business (the chief market for Word) this
sort of thing is only an annoyance--one of the routine hassles that go
along with using computers. It's easy to buy little file converter
programs that will take care of this problem. But if you are a writer
whose career is words, whose professional identity is a corpus of
written documents, this kind of thing is extremely disquieting.
...
</quote>
Most companies producing word processors do not have the pristine
condition of your content at heart, but rather continual churn to
the next version of the software. As can be seen from the above
quote this can really play hell with your content management.
Furthermore, features of LaTeX, or even SGML+LaTeX, can offer
features, in combination with other tools (CVS, some DB) that
can manage content as well, or even better than most word
processors.
--
-- Joe Dalton
-- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:37:55 -0000
On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 03:09:38 -0400, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Said Mike Byrns in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>>Weevil wrote:
> [...]
[deletia]
>>I remeber being jealous of those cool graphical
>>toy computers. But my PC was so much faster and I multitasked quite nicely with
>>DesqView and Sidekick. When I saw Windows for the first time in 1987 I wasn't
In 1987, you actually had to shell out quite a bit of money to
end up with a PC faster than an ST or Amiga. That "speed
difference" is disputable and one of the classic bits of FUD
from that day (but usually hurled at the Mac).
OTOH, the MC68K machines were all 8Mhz machines with no legacy
segmented memory architecture and more pleasant front ends.
Multitasking wasn't necessarily a good deal in the overall tradeoff.
Besides, the 68K machines were all capable of limited multitasking
as well, even the ST.
>>terribly impressed. DesqView was still better even though Windows had been out
>>for over a year. [...]
>
>Oddly enough, the more experience you actually have, the more stupid it
>makes you seem, that you hold your current opinions and delusions.
>You're starting to become something of a rather sad figure, Mike; locked
>into the monopoly for your livelihood, you can't fathom why anyone says
>anything bad about Microsoft...
[deletia]
--
Where do I find the time for not reading so many books?
-- Karl Kraus
... I don't know why but, suddenly, I want to discuss declining I.Q.
LEVELS with a blue ribbon SENATE SUB-COMMITTEE!
Quantity is no substitute for quality, but its the only one we've got.
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:45:12 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said FM in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>>What is an action? What is the result of sending a message?
>
>Btw, Richard failed to address this latter question. What comes
>out of an "action" is a key distinction between functional
>programming and procedural programming.
Yes, I noticed that (about Richard). What is it about object oriented
programming that differentiates it from functional programming?
>>If you mix 'concepts' and "metaphor" with Richard, you're screwed. His
>>recent exchange with Dan seem to show that, contrary to my prior
>>impression, Richard is a very smart (and very stupid; you know how that
>>goes) person. Rather than being incapable of grasping an abstraction,
>>he seems to be quite in love with his ability to grasp abstractions, and
>>refuses to recognize the concept of a 'metaphor'.
>
>That's called failing to grasp abstractions. Being able to deal
>with abstract thoughts in itself doesn't demonstrate one's grasp
>of them.
According the 6th Handbook of Literature, the theory that primitive
minds are unable to grasp abstractions is little more than bigotry. I'm
on the fence about it, myself, actually. I do think, in fact, that
being able to deal with abstract thoughts does require the ability to
grasp them. The problem Richard seems to have is that he's convinced
himself that there is nothing but abstraction. To him, perception is
abstraction, so a real object is just as 'metaphorical' as a programming
object. Apparently, he has a tenuous grasp of reality.
>The problem with Richard here, is that he really chose
>the wrong person to argue this kind of matter with.
Or the right person, from anyone else's perspective. ;-) I'm quite
enjoying the exchange. Thanks again for your time.
[...]
>>What's AOP, btw?
>
>Aspect-Oriented Programming. Yet another programming methodology
>that people confuse with fundamental computational paradigms.
Let's presume that I understand the different between a programming
methodology and a computational paradigm. (Its not very clear, but I
believe I grasp the basic concepts, so I'm sure I'll be able to sort
things out as necessary.) Could you describe the Aspect-Oriented
programming method a bit more?
>>>[...]You are flawed in the other
>>>direction - you have become so obssessed with concepts
>>>that you can't see how mechanisms can differ from concepts
>>>(or rather from how concepts are described) and can still
>>>implement them correctly - and much less useful.
>
>>You lost it at the end, there, Dan, but I think its clear enough what
>>you meant.
>
>That's a bit long for a sentence, but I don't know where I
>lost it.
The combination of the length and the compound nature (your hyphen
phrase is a complete sentence, with a different tense) makes it quite
difficult to read. Both the 'and can still implement them correctly'
and the 'much less useful' phrase appear to be addressing different
subjects than the sentence as a whole. I wouldn't say either is
incorrect, but they are a bit liberal in terms of language. No big
deal, though. Sorry for nit-picking.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
http://www2.PetitionOnline.com/dejanews/petition.html
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
