Linux-Advocacy Digest #607, Volume #30 Sat, 2 Dec 00 13:13:03 EST
Contents:
Re: The Sixth Sense ("Chad C. Mulligan")
45 Seconds for Win2K to open a file.... (kool breeze)
Re: Whistler review. ("Chad C. Mulligan")
Re: Linux is awful (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: Linux is awful (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: Linux is awful (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: Netscape review. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: More money saved thanks to Linux ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Whistler review. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux for nitwits (Bob Hauck)
Re: The Sixth Sense (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: OS Sound OFF. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Chad C. Mulligan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:10:14 GMT
"Chris Ahlstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Ayende Rahien wrote:
> > >
> > > You forgot a few of steps!
> > >
> > > Disconnect data and power cables from floppy.
> > > Disconnect data and power cables from CD-ROM
> > > Boot and install password on BIOS
> >
> > Anyone with a screwdirver can remove this & restore floppy & CD-ROM
> > It's a bit harder to conjour a modem or a network card with only a
> > screwdriver :)
> >
> > > Now the only way to install software is using DEBUG <grin>.
> > >
> > > By the way, I read that the NT/2000 Resource Kits are just loaded
> > > with hacking tools.
> >
> > Hacking tools?
>
> I mean, "system administration" tools... nltest, getmac, netdom,
> reg, regdmp, passprop, dumpel, pulist, soon, remote, shutdown, sc,
> kill, auditpol, ipsecpol, and whoami.
>
> This doesn't count the additions in Win 2000, such as runas, secedit,
> and dcpromo.
>
> And don't forget about tracert, nslookup, and netstat, and net.
>
> Microsoft is learning from UNIX, it seems. Lots of tools.
> In any case, I have a hell of a lot of reading to do to catch up.
>
> You probably want to buy the second edition of "Hacking Exposed."
>
> >
> > Anyway, now we have a 10 steps, we need two more in order to make it
> > official.
>
> Here's two more:
>
> Kill and bury the IT people who set up the machines.
> Kill the people who buried these people.
<joke>
An easier solution would be a small charge activated by the power switch.
</joke>
>
> Chris
>
> --
> Are you sure you want to read this message?
> Click Okay to continue, and Cancel to okay
> this dialog.
------------------------------
From: kool breeze <kool;[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: 45 Seconds for Win2K to open a file....
Reply-To: Fucui an de horse u rodeinon
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:01:06 GMT
I just have to rant. I started to complile a VC++ 6.0 project just
yesterday. I wanted to look at some source after i started the build.
It took a full 45 seconds to open the file.
I have NEVER had a Unix/Linux box run so slow, even with 40-50 people
logged on and running applications.
I'm really sorry, I make lots of money programming windowd, butI
f**king hate windows.
------------------------------
From: "Chad C. Mulligan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:11:51 GMT
"Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Conrad Rutherford wrote:
>
>
> > > would have known if you had read one of my replies elsewhere in this
> > thread.
> > > But then again, asking a Winvocate Troll to Read before Posting is
futile.
> >
> > So this tells me that you don't know how to take full advantage of all
the
> > features W2K offers. W2K is far superiour to Linux in every way I've
been
> > able to determine.
>
> Every way that YOU can determine, perhaps. But not every way that
> WE can detremine.
>
What do you mean we? Got mouse in pocket?
> Colin Day
>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:30:31 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote
on Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:25:49 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 08:43:59 GMT, Pete Goodwin
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>"Anti-linux propoganda"? If the rest of the group don't have certain
>>problems, does that automatically mean they don't exist?
>
>Of course they have problems they just ignore them, work around them
>or when all else fails deny them. Then they flood the group with
>twisted versions of the problem and how the person is inept. Classic
>example is my cut and paste problem. I kept repeating over and over
>and over yet again "use the menues " between Netscape and Kedit and
>see what happens.
Precision helps, but I concur. There is a problem here, a legitimate
problem, a demonstrable problem. Whether it's an important one
may depend on one's usage habits, but the vast majority of Windows
users -- that [insert appropriate cuss word here] monopoly -- use
control X or control C to cut and copy, and control V to paste.
Not emulating that behavior in X/kwrite will cause minor confusion.
Emulating it poorly will cause *major* confusion.
kwrite and kedit emulate it poorly. I believe that's your contention,
and I concur with it.
As for the precision:
1. Bring up two kwrite or kedit windows (both tools will show this problem).
2. Type something into both windows. It doesn't matter what.
3. Highlight a region in window #1. The region should invert color.
4. Hit control/C or pick the menu entry Edit->Copy in window #1.
5. Highlight a region in window #2. Oops, the highlighted region
in window #1 goes away! "Is this a problem?" wonders Mr. Naive User.
6. Now hit control/V or pick Edit->Paste. If you're lucky, nothing
happens. If you're unlucky, you'll get a funny character (actually,
the character control V). I forget which happens.
Note that this works perfectly in e.g. Windows Notepad, Wordpad,
Write, or Microsoft Word. Try it! :-)
(Disclaimer: I'm using KDE 1.2. KDE 2.0 may have very well
fixed this problem, though I doubt it for various reasons.)
Now, I think this particular problem is part usage error, part bug,
part lowered expectations. The usage error is in misunderstanding
how X handles selections -- it's quite different from Windows'.
The bug is in several places; X has a "selection token", and through
long years of neglect and sloppiness on the part of application
developers, the selected region corresponds to the token, rather than
to the application or window.
(See manpages on XGetSelectionOwner, XSetSelectionOwner,
XDisownSelection, XSelectionEvent, XSelectionClearEvent,
and XSelectionRequestEvent for this admittedly complicated
protocol. Note that GTK handles most of the goop for the
app programmer and the user, so higher-level apps will
never see the machinations done down below in the widgets.)
Ideally, one could select the region and own the token, but, if the token
is lost (because the user selected a region somewhere else), the region
remains selected in that window, but changes color; clicking on the
window again reacquires the token and changes color again. Admittedly,
this is a personal preference; the first color could be a nice black
(assuming the original text was white on black) with white text,
the second one a gray or dark blue with white or yellow text.
Of course, this would be configurable. There are also some issues
if the window can't get the selection token during initial selection,
while the user is moving the mouse. (Usually, this isn't a problem.)
One interesting side jaunt. If one is sufficiently well-versed in Motif
programming, one can open multiple windows to the same edit area
and changes to one window will reflect in all other windows simultaneously.
This leads to a very nice, simple editor (it's proprietary because
I wrote it while employed here, but it wouldn't be difficult to rewrite;
the main issues are coding up the menus and handling the file requester),
which evokes memories of good old Display Manager on Aegis (I'm showing
my age here), but it has the interesting property that *all* windows
pointing to a file highlight the *same* selection region, if one
highlights something -- and all of them will lose the highlight if
another selection is made elsewhere.
>The Penguinista's kept posting middle mouse button
>methods all the while ignoring that several other people posted that
>they had similar problems.
Middle mouse button methods are an established de-facto standard in X.
They work. However, it's obviously they're not the only method of
cutting and pasting -- Windows shows this nicely.
The Windows model works reasonably well -- in Windows. I occasionally
lose track of whether I copied something or not and paste the wrong
thing; this is a moderately annoying flaw, but every app supports
control/Z (undo), so it's not a major one. In X, I occasionally
paste nothing because the source lost the highlight -- usually because
I want to paste message transcripts from an active IRC chat.
This is either a bug in xterm, or a feature. I live with it
and can work around it using control/S and control/Q (control/S halts
output; control/Q restores it). In this case, control/Z or Undo
is not necessary, but I do have to rehighlight the selected area
if it happens.
Six of one, half a dozen of another, in my view.
>
>
>>Are you telling me my problems with SB16 and AHA152x are anti-Linux
>>propoganda? They exist. They're real. Other people may not have
>>experienced them, but that does not make them any less real.
>
>They will deny them just the same because of some hcl or the fact that
>someone was able to get an 8k sampling rate squeak out of the card so
>it must work under Linux.
>
>The Penguinista's are one step from the Hare' Krishna's.
Now let's not get silly here! :-) My head is full of hair, I don't sell
flowers, and I certainly don't dress in orange robes. (I have
a brown felt robe, but that's a different issue and I certainly wouldn't
wear that outside.)
But may peace be unto you, anyway. :-)
>
>claire
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
up 77 days, 13:07, running Linux.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:33:26 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, kiwiunixman
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote
on Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:27:20 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>Extreme OS advocates are like extreme left/right parties, anyone who is
>not extreme enough are seen as the enemy, for example a moderate fascist
>maybe seen by the extreme fascists as a communist sympathiser.
Agreed. Moderation in most things.
>
>With that said, if one were truly looking for help, they would goto the
>appropriate place, such as, alt.os.linux.mandrake, or
>comp.os.linux.help, instead of looking for trouble in the advocacy
>forums. It I posted by terrible experience with Windows 98 SE on a
>Windows advocacy group, I would get sledged for slamming Windows. I
>think this is why many Linux advocates get angry, newbies who are quick
>to criticise Linux, but never seeking help. Its like an alcoholic who
>blames the liquor companies for his woes, yet never checks into an AA.
Or is slightly clueless and walks into a police station to look
up local laws, when he should have gone into the library (either
public or law) instead. :-)
Or perhaps a better example would be walking into a biker's pub. :-) :-)
>
>kiwiunixman
>
>Pete Goodwin wrote:
>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>>> Using the new AOL promo CD you got with the Sunday newspaper?
>>
>>
>> Is it the policy of this group to poke fun at people with problems with
>> Linux? Or is the assumption that _anyone_ reporting problems is not worth
>> listening to, and should be derided? If so, then what amazing arrogance!
>>
>
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- no, I am not a biker. Maybe a bicycler, if I can
find my two-wheeler buried in my garage.
up 77 days, 13:31, running Linux.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:37:02 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Charlie Ebert
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote
on Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:59:13 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Skully1900 wrote:
[snip Skully1900's stuff]
>Yeah, Windows 2000 is just a space shuttle alright.
Pedant point.
As I understand the construction of the space shuttle, the
computers therewithin (there are either 3 or 5 of them;
I forget which) would make a PC-XT look powerful. But
they never crash. :-)
[rest snipped]
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
up 77 days, 13:35, running Linux.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: Netscape review.
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:40:39 GMT
I didn't say that. I said that IE on a Mac looks and runs better than
Netscape on a Mac.
claire
On Sat, 02 Dec 2000 04:03:16 GMT, "Kyle Jacobs"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Say, why does IE look cooler on Mac then it does on PC? I'd think that
>Microsoft would make their product a little trendier on their home platform,
>wouldn't you think?
>
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 22:15:26 -0600, spicerun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Please don't insult the Mac people.....I doubt they're thrilled with IE.
>>
>> Actually it runs quite nicely on my daughters iMac, which is more than
>> I can say about any version of Netscape I have ever used. The iMac
>> came with both Netscape and an older version of IE installed. Guess
>> which one she used? Hint it wasn't the more current version of
>> Netscape. We upgraded to IE 5 and it is great.
>>
>> claire
>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: More money saved thanks to Linux
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:40:38 GMT
On Sat, 02 Dec 2000 03:41:03 GMT, sfcybear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>yeap, Linux saves money!
>
>
>http://www.slashtco.com/article.pl?sid=00/12/01/1142208
A perfect match made in heaven, Linux and a bunch of eggheads. I'll
bet they have kernel compiling parties where they get together and sip
fine wine while they watch the compilation messages go by.
In reality though, this really is a perfect use for Linux and this is
where Linux should focus itself instead of making a half assed attempt
at the consumer desktop.
claire
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:42:36 GMT
On Sat, 02 Dec 2000 10:38:00 -0600, spicerun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>kiwiunixman wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Have you always wondered why bill gates never sits on a seat properly?
>> its because conrade is up bill gates ass.
>>
>> kiwiunixman
>
>Hmm.....gets mighty crowded with 2 heads up the same ass then.
Just spilled my coffee laughing.
Good one :)
claire
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: Linux for nitwits
Reply-To: bobh{at}haucks{dot}org
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:43:48 GMT
On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 02:30:12 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> bobh{at}haucks{dot}org wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:07:10 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>> > bobh{at}haucks{dot}org wrote:
>> >> For a very lightweight window manager that has a clock
>> >> at the bottom of the screen, multiple workspaces, and
>> >> kde compatibility, you might want to look at Blackbox.
>>
>> >The trouble with migrating to other window managers is that,
>> >as a new convert to Linux, I don't automagically know how
>> >to switch to the new window manager after having installed
Since you are trying to run on a much smaller hardware platform than
most distributions assume, I think you're going to be stuck with having
to learn how to customize. And, yes, the documentation for doing that
isn't designed for new users and isn't entirely up to date. Remember,
though, that you're not going to get NT4 running in 16 MB at all and a
typical Linux distribution is more comparable to NT in features than to
Win95. So you can expect to do some hacking.
I'd tell you all about the fvwm95 start menu, except that I've never
used fvwm95.
>As seen below (I started from the bottom when replying),
>KDE and GNOME are not suitable for the install, hence
>they are not "options".
Oh well. You'll have to learn to install and configure something else
then if you don't like what your distribution provides.
>What I want is a desktop clock and a few other buttons.
>What I don't have is the recommended system requirements
>to run KDE or GNOME.
Try blackbox, fvwm2 (not 95...they're different), twm, or icewm. There
are lots of others, but you're going to have to install and configure
them yourself if they aren't in your distribution. Some are easier to
configure than others.
>> If you want something more like Windows, then you
>> ought to use one of the more Windows-like desktops,
>> such as KDE or Gnome.
>
>On a laptop with less than 1GB of hard drive space and
>16MB of RAM?
My laptop has 860 MB of space after subtracting the special hibernation
partition and the special Compaq Setup partition. It used to have 16
MB of memory, but now has 48. I don't use KDE on it, but that's the
default my distribution gave me. I wanted to use the same distro on
laptop and desktop, so I learned how to change window managers. It
turned out to be pretty easy.
I ended up keeping KDE on the machine (because I like some of the
apps). I use the kdm GUI login manager and simply added an entry to
/opt/kde/share/config/kdmrc to use a script called "bbox" as the
window manager. That script starts blackbox and a couple of apps.
>All I'm saying is that it should be easier to update
>the menus on FVWM2/95, Blackbox, or whatever non-KDE
>or non-GNOME X Window Manager you HAVE TO USE thanks
>to low memory and/or low disk space restrictions.
The Blackbox menu is pretty easy. Just a single text file with a
simple structure. It gets re-read automatically if you change it,
which avoids the need to restart to see changes.
>> FVWM doesn't even pretend to be a complete desktop.
>> It looks a lot like Windows, and that's about it.
>
>FVWM has extremely low memory and hard drive
>requirements, making it largely ideal for a laptop
>with <1GB hard drive space and 16MB of physical RAM.
Blackbox is even smaller, and it is much easier to configure IME.
There's no "start button", just a root menu that you get by
right-clicking on the background. There is a clock, there are multiple
desktops, it supports simple themes and something called the "slit"
that's sort of like the Windows system tray. That's about it.
>> If you want minimal, you can have that with Linux.
>> If you want easy point and click customization, you
>> can have that. I don't know how to do both.
>
>It should be possible to have easy point and click
>in any window manager.
I think that the main reason you don't see this is because minimalist
window managers tend to be favored by long-time Unix users. Another
reason is that while you could do a basic thing easily, it is a never
ending job and pretty soon your configurator is more complex than the
window manager itself. And then somebody wants icons on the desktop
and a taskbar and pretty soon you have written KDE. The author of
Blackbox lists right on his web site some things that he will never
consider adding because of his goal of minimalism.
There are lots of window managers out there. Look around, maybe you'll
find what you're looking for. At least there's a choice, inconvenient
as it may be.
>Its adding code to expand the audience of the window
>manager. While not extremely important to free
>software, open source models, one would think that
>expanding Linux faster onto the desktop would appeal
>to the makers of window manager Linux ports.
The majority of new users have machines that are fully capable of
running KDE. They are capable of running the latest MS-ware after all
and these users do expect all the fancy gadgets. So the "market" for
what you're asking for seems to me to be pretty limited. Cranky guys
like me who are too cheap to buy a new laptop isn't a huge market <g>.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:51:03 GMT
"Chad C. Mulligan" wrote:
>
> One does expect an operating system to be able to count. IAC with the proper
> driver for the BIOS power management the problem is solved.
>
> IAC I don't think I was the one saying that possibly another Chad. ;-]
Surely you understand how difficult it is to count chad??? nyuk nyuk
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: OS Sound OFF.
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:51:36 GMT
On Sat, 02 Dec 2000 05:27:58 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie
Ebert) wrote:
>
>Everybody who reads this, sound off with your OS please.
>The one your using or like the most.
>
>Then the others you use follow.
Win 2000 Sp1 for main work, internet, server for ics and rest of
house. Scanner, network printers, digital camera etc attached here.
Win98SE for digital audio work.Highly customized and bare bones
install with no internet connection, games etc. Only programs are
digital audio ones.
Mac OS 9.x on my daughters iMac DVD.
Linux Mandrake 7.2 Macmillan "Full version" and SuSE 7.0 from Linux
Format magazine.
Used to tinker and for the occasional testing to confirm that most of
what said about Linux is hype.
claire
------------------------------
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