Linux-Advocacy Digest #622, Volume #30 Sun, 3 Dec 00 05:13:09 EST
Contents:
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Netscape review. ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Red hat becoming illegal? ("Tom Wilson")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Tom Wilson")
Re: Red Hat drops Sparc support with new Linux version (Ed Allen)
Re: Dumbing down linux? ("Rodrigo Iglesias")
Re: Whistler review. ("Quantum Leaper")
Re: Linux is awful (Pete Goodwin)
Re: WINDOZE is awful (Pete Goodwin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Date: 3 Dec 2000 08:21:58 GMT
On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 02:27:44 -0500, jtnews wrote:
>Hey! I've got an idea, can I buy Dell's cheapest Dimension models,
>then wipe their hard drives, return the software to Microsoft, get the
>refund, and resell the systems at a cheaper price and make money that
>way?
Here's a better idea: buy a model from thelinuxstore.com and resell
it without changing anything
http://www.thelinuxstore.com/perl-bin/details.pl?id=878
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Date: 3 Dec 2000 08:30:52 GMT
On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 02:34:44 -0500, jtnews wrote:
>Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
>> Last I checked, aslab offer better prices than Dell. IMO, you are at
>> fault for being too narrow-minded to support Linux-friendly vendors.
>
>But I need a support contract so I'm not stuck with a system that
>doesn't work.
Almost all vendors offer a one year warranty or better.
>Dell has pretty good support. Plus, I know Dell will be around for a
>while.
>With the small-time companies, you don't really know what their balance
>sheets look like, so I'm afraid to do business with them. They may not
>be around tommorrow.
Well, I think if the company has been around in the early days of Linux,
and they've managed to survive, then they are unlikely to go out of
business any time soon. I mean, it's not like they'd have less business
now than they did five years ago.
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Netscape review.
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 03:31:53 -0500
Peter Ammon wrote:
>
> Ayende Rahien wrote:
> >
> >
> > Have you ever developed web pages? Complex ones?
> > Guess who is the one that adher to standards and who is the one who isn't?
> > In this case, Microsoft was the one that most closely adhered standards.
> > Netscape can't *handle* standards.
> > They had to rebuilt their entire codebase because of that.
> > And guess who is the browser that forced me to break my pages' standard
> > compliance before?
> > Guess who is the browser that now force me to hack my own code, in order to
> > fix things that it made me do the wrong way in the first place?
>
> Much as I hate to admit it, you're right. Last summer, when I developed
> some pretty sophisticated web pages, I made the mistake of "debugging"
> them exclusively in Internet Explorer. I got them to the point where I
> thought they were finished, but then I loaded them in Netscape, and the
> damage was pretty severe.
>
> The most egregious example was in Javascript. You can declare a
> function to execute when you close a window, and in Internet Explorer,
> this works fine. But in Netscape, when the window closes, it
> immediately stops the execution of the function! You aren't guaranteed
> that even the first line of your function will execute under Netscape,
> which means that you can never use the feature.
It's not a feature...it's a deliberate red-herring.
>
> -Peter
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Date: 3 Dec 2000 08:33:28 GMT
On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 07:43:58 GMT, Vann wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>(Donovan Rebbechi) wrote:
>I believe jtnews wants to get a computer without Windows ME, and all the
>other MS software. He could then pay less, since he isn't actually
>purchasing the licenses. Basically, he only wants what he needs, nothing
>more, nothing less.
The problem is that the argument that "Linux computers are cheaper because
you don't have to buy a Windows license" is not completely accurate, because
you can run Win9x with crap hardware, which means that the cheapest Win9x
system ends up being cheaper than (but not as good as) the cheapest linux
system.
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 03:34:17 -0500
jtnews wrote:
>
> Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
> > First, if you're saying that it's "not true" that the Dimension is available
> > with Linux, you are simply wrong. Go look at the webpage.
>
> I did look at the web page. The Dimension models for Linux are NOT
> cheaper
> than the Windows models!
>
> I don't want mid-range models. I want the cheapest models without
> Windows.
> The cheapest model WITHOUT Windows should cost LESS than the cheapest
> model
> WITH Windows. The cheapest model uses a Soundblaster sound chip and
> Intel AGP
> graphics. There's no problem with Linux compatibility there.
>
> A brand new version of Windows ME costs in excess of $100 at retail.
> If I could shave off another $100 on the CHEAPEST model by not having
> to buy Windows, that choice should be made available!
>
> >Look, if you're really concerned about the issue, don't buy hardware
> >from Dell -- support a Linux-only hardware shop like aslab instead.
> >Don't give Dell your dollar vote, and then complain.
>
> Unfortunately, a little tiny hardware shop can't compete with Dell when
> Dell
> gets huge volume discounts.
>
> Something clearly is not right with the pricing structure even now.
Then write to Dell and raise a stink.
Tell them you work for a PC magazine.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Red hat becoming illegal?
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 08:34:24 GMT
"Bob Hauck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Sat, 02 Dec 2000 18:38:26 -0500, Glitch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >well to be honest the legal system never thought we would have such a
> >crybaby loser like we have with Gore so b/c of him we are having a 30
> >day election instead of a 1 day election with some votes counted 5 times
> >and the other 95% counted once.
>
> Gore did win the popular vote nationally, so your man Bush was really
> the minority choice. If the tables were turned, would you be telling
> Bush to concede or would you be insisting that he's only taking
> advantage of the options available and saying that the electoral
> college system needs to be thrown out?
<soapbox>
Actually, Republicans wouldn't have allowed Bush to follow this course.
They're not stupid. What Gore is doing now is damaging a party already
banged-up by Clinton. How the hell else, in this strong economy, could the
election have even been close? What Gore's doing now is adding more nails
to the Democratic coffin. I used to be a STAUNCH Democrat, until around
1993. The Democratic party, now, isn't the party I used to support. Their
idiotic post-election behavior just re-enforces that decision. The longer it
goes on, the less viable the party becomes. A smart Democratic party would
have gracefully bowed out, allowed the Republicans to have a legitimately
questionable four year turn at the helm, then come back and clean house in
2004. As it stands, they're putting 2002 senate races in jeopardy. Mark my
words, the longer this goes on, the more seats they'll lose. Now, any
efforts by them to tie up the senate to counter Bush proposals will appear
as more sour grapes. In 2004, they're going to nominate Hillary Clinton.
Just watch. It will be an unmitigated disaster!
IDIOTS!
</soapbox>
--
Tom Wilson
A Computer Programmer who wishes he'd chosen another vocation.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 03:35:23 -0500
Tom Wilson wrote:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8Q4W5.6538$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
> >
> > >> Donovan Rebbechi writes:
> >
> > >>> The movement keys are placed sensibly in vi (hjkl),
> >
> > >> Which is not intuitive. First-time vi users, if they try to do
> >
> > > Big fucking deal. NOTHING about computers is "intuitive"
> >
> > Incorrect; consider the power switch.
>
> You'd be surprised....
> Never underestimate the idiot factor.
The power switch is NOT "intuitive"
Proof: put a primative tribesman in a room with electric appliances
and tell him to start the things into operation.
>
> --
> Tom Wilson
> A Computer Programmer who wishes he'd chosen another vocation.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 08:51:42 GMT
"Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Tom Wilson wrote:
> >
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:8Q4W5.6538$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
> > >
> > > >> Donovan Rebbechi writes:
> > >
> > > >>> The movement keys are placed sensibly in vi (hjkl),
> > >
> > > >> Which is not intuitive. First-time vi users, if they try to do
> > >
> > > > Big fucking deal. NOTHING about computers is "intuitive"
> > >
> > > Incorrect; consider the power switch.
> >
> > You'd be surprised....
> > Never underestimate the idiot factor.
>
> The power switch is NOT "intuitive"
>
> Proof: put a primative tribesman in a room with electric appliances
> and tell him to start the things into operation.
I'm in agreement. The language I used, in hindsight, was wrong.
Read: Never underestimate the ignorance factor.
I used "idiot" because i'ts been one of those nights...
--
Tom Wilson
A Computer Programmer who wishes he'd chosen another vocation.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ed Allen)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Red Hat drops Sparc support with new Linux version
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 08:58:53 GMT
In article <DqlW5.38798$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Chad C. Mulligan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> >
>> >Yeah, right a software company is afraid of hardware manufacturers????
>> >
>> You are the one who said that the hardware manufacturers, not me.
>>
>> So what does "driven by" but "not afraid of" mean ? What words
>> should I have used ?
>>
>
>How 'bout something that makes sense. Your claim that MS is afraid of RAM
>makers is ludicrous.
>
Now I see that you intend to keep ignoring that it was you who said
Microsoft was "driven" by the hardware manufacturers not me.
Pretending that hardware costs are low enough to be ignored seem
disingenuous to me.
No wonder people label you a troll.
Sorry to to have thought otherwise.
--
"Whether you think their witnesses are credible or non-credible;
they've admitted monopoly power, they've admitted raising prices to hurt
consumers, they've admitted depriving consumers of choice...
-DAVID BOIES, US Department of Justice
------------------------------
From: "Rodrigo Iglesias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Dumbing down linux?
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 09:42:18 GMT
> I have read a few things on this group and I am curious. There seems to
> be a consensus that RedHat is dumbing down Linux. I am using it, and it
> has all the things I need. I can still configure it from vi when I need
> too. It doesn't seem to be missing things from previous releases, with
> the exception of "glint" and I don't think I've seen that since 5.2.
Even when I prefer that each computer operation (the installation as
an example) could be done in two or more ways (console with no
assistants and framebuffer as an example), the thing that makes me not
liking Redhat are including too experimental code just because of
marketing and selling matters. Simply that.
------------------------------
From: "Quantum Leaper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 09:48:00 GMT
"The Ghost In The Machine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Tom Wilson
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote
> on Thu, 30 Nov 2000 12:37:17 GMT
> <1SrV5.102$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> >"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:905e4n$npr$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >>
> >> "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >> news:C5qV5.88$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> [snip]
>
> >> > You have to remember, Ayende, that a lot of folks still play games
that
> >> were
> >> > written before Win95.
> >>
> >> I know, GoldenAxe is my favoraite old time game.
> >> I can still play it, your point?
> >
> >Simply, a rebuttle to the "...only possible with DOS" and "Because not
even
> >a moderatedly successful game came out in the last three years or so that
> >didn't run on windows?" portions of the thread.
> >
> >If you want to have fun with an old DOS game, find the original IBM-PC
port
> >of Centipede and play it on a modern machine. It's hillarious!
>
> A few points here.
>
> [1] I have an old Defender clone somewhere (Stargate) that was
> originally for PC-XT era machines, on a 5 1/4" floppy. Forget
> about playing it on modern hardware, even if one can locate a
> floppy drive (it's possible but one has to hunt); the timers
> assume 12 megahertz, probably using old-fashioned fixed-value
> busywait loops. I suppose I could try to patch it, but why bother?
>
Easy, just run 'slowmo' or one of the other slowdown programs. I used to
play Star Wars Arcade game, on my P75, you could live for about 1/2
second. I have 2 - 5 1/4 drives, so it would be that hard to install it.
> [2] Has anyone successfully played Delta-V on Win95, Win98, or WinMe?
> (Delta-V is an interesting flight-simulator-cum-_Neuromancer_-type
> story that takes a whopping 600K of conventional memory. It was quite
> playable using QEMM (I think), if one does some tricky maneuvering,
> but I've yet to get it to work under Win95 -- not that I've tried
> all that hard.)
>
I wish I could remember the game (its a EA game and I bought it in a 12
pack) that requires atleast 610K of conventional memory, which is easy to
get under Win95.
> [3] I still play DOOM (actually, BOOM) on a regular basis, especially
> with randomly-generated new maps from a tool called SLIGE.
> Not the most interesting environment, but it helps pass the time. :-)
>
Too low res for me, I would rather play Quake.
> [4] Unreal almost works under WinE. Last I tried it (which was awhile
ago),
> its main problem was that multiplayer 'bot mode didn't work.
>
What version are you running? A new patch may fix the problem. I know
Unreal works GREAT under Windows 2K, didn't even have to reinstall it.
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 09:55:56 +0000
Les Mikesell wrote:
> > > There is a difference between support and black magic. No one but
> > > you knows where you put those jumpers, and there is a perfectly
> > > reasonable way to tell Linux about it that doesn't involve usenet.
> >
> > What jumpers? I never changed no jumpers.
>
> Oh, so you left them alone. Same thing.
This is ISA PnP. Plug and play means the OS can configure it for you.
> > Incorrect. I never changed any of my card settings. I edited
> > isapnp.conf, because the automatic configuration couldn't seem to do it
> > itself, and get it right.
>
> They have to match - there is nothing magic about this - you can change
> either, but you can't reliably detect in software what they are. If you
> look through the source you will find 'likely' values are probed on
> some devices but not the full range of possibilities so sometimes a
> particular card will be automatically found, sometimes not. If this
> is the case and you set the card to any of the expected values it
> will be autodetected. It is generally easier to just tell the system
> where to find it than to go check for this.
See above.
> > For both the SB16 and AHA154x I made no changes to their BIOS or jumper
> > settings. I edited configuration files, precisely what I thought Linux
> > Mandrake was supposed to do for me.
>
> Given that it is impossible, your expectations were obviously wrong and
> you were told that long ago. Please take the complaints to the people
> who designed the ISA bus. They can't change it now either. I don't
> understand why you think this is a flaw in Linux or Mandrake.
Because Linux Mandrake 7.0 claimed support for SB16. If it claims support
and it doesn't work, then its a flaw.
In any case I just tried Mandrake 7.2 on this older system, it detected and
correctly installed drivers for the AHA152x, so it was obviously possible
to do this.
> That is exactly my point. Why do you think you should not have to deal
> with those complexities, especially if you refuse to use PCI
> self-configuring devices?
Because both the SB16 and AHA152x _are_ PnP self configuring devices.
--
Pete, running KDE2 on Linux Mandrake 7.2
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: WINDOZE is awful
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 10:04:57 +0000
Adam Majer wrote:
> > Use LILO not the WIN2K loader. LILO to select Linux or Windows 2000.
> > Then Windows 2000 to select Windows 95 or Windows 2000. It's not
> > pleasant but it works.
>
> How? I have Win95 installed on hda1. and then I installed win2k on hdb1
> but it put its loader not on hdb but on hda MBR. With lilo, I can't
> start win2k from hdb but I have to go to hda - that's where the stupid
> windoze put itself. Oh yes, it overwrote the win95 loader so I have to
> use 2k to boot 95 (lilo boots 2k)..
Isn't that what I just said?
> Oh well, maybe I write some code to lilo so that it will hide partition
> (ie. change it's type at boot time so at least windoze will don't know
> what to do with it :)
The free partition manager I couldn't remember is at:
http://www.users.intercom.com/~ranish
--
Pete, running KDE2 on Linux Mandrake 7.2
------------------------------
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