Linux-Advocacy Digest #635, Volume #30 Sun, 3 Dec 00 21:13:06 EST
Contents:
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever (Giuliano Colla)
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? (jtnews)
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? (jtnews)
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their cheap PC's? (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Linux is awful ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Whistler review. ("Colin R. Day")
Re: Goodwin Acknowledges he's an idiot. (Terry Porter)
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! (Andrew Carpenter)
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their cheap PC's? (jtnews)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux is awful (Chas2K)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Giuliano Colla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 00:03:39 GMT
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> "Giuliano Colla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> > >
> > > Do you know how you remove TCP from Linux? It requires a kernel
> recompile.
> > > So Yes, it does require a reboot to remove it and another reboot to add
> it
> > > back in.
> >
> > You're not exactly fair.
> > If by removing you mean "physically removing", then you're correct, but
> > that's of very little interest.
>
> That is what mlw originally specified.
>
Well, the thread has become quite long, so you may have skipped some
points. They were speaking about a new install of Win98 and the problem
of activating TCP/IP, in order to connect to the Internet to get I don't
know what (I too skipped some points!).
> > If you mean "disabling", i.e. making it unavailable to any user, locally
> > and remotely, which is what is normally required, you can do it without
> > rebooting, and without affecting any running application, except
> > applications using TCP, of course.
>
> Same with NT. Under NT4, for instance, right click on Network Neighborhood,
> choose properties. Select the Bindings tab. choose All Protocols from the
> Show Bindings for dropdown. Click on TCP/IP and choose Disable. Choose Ok.
> It will rebind the protocols and ask you to reboot, however you don't have
> to (this is a long standing bug. NT asks you to reboot, but in almost all
> cases it's not necessary). Check your TCP connections, they no longer work.
> Go back in and reenable TCP/IP, still without rebooting and they work again.
See above. Thread was about Win98.
As far as NT is concerned, it's not so easy to tell when the request to
reboot is good and when not. Could you point a MS document where this is
explained? It would save some rebooting.
Even the MS troubleshooting guide for NT4
http://support.microsoft.com/isapi/support/apgts/apgts.dll
tells that you *must* restart, after enabling TCP/IP:
<quote>
10.Click No when you are prompted to restart your computer. If you have
installed a Windows NT Service Pack, you need to reinstall the Service
Pack before you restart your computer.
11.Restart your computer.
</quote>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 19:06:32 -0500
From: jtnews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> Fine, you want a CD-RW, add $149, still cheaper than the dell.
>
> Why do you want the crappy soundblaster chip?
>
> The audio and network chips on this board are:
Your post got chopped off please repost.
I want the Creative Soundblaster chip because it's the most popular.
I tend to favor the most popular chipsets to avoid compatiblity problems
in future operating systems.
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------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 18:10:48 -0600
"jtnews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> >
> >
> > The "Fully Loaded System (Unassembled)" item will give you:
> >
> > ATX Mid-tower case with power supply
> > Celeron 600 with CPU Fan
> > 64MB of memory ($22 extra)
> > Floppy, 52x CDROM, Keyboard, Onboard Audio and Video, Onboard 56K modem
and
> > Onboard 10/100 Ethernet
> > 10.2 GB hard drive.
> >
> > All for $441.
Argh.. sorry about the misfire.
The audio and network chips on the board are:
Onboard SiS 900 fast 10/100 Base-TX PCI Ethernet Adapter
Onboard C-Media CMI-8738 3D PCI Surround sound system
SiS provides a Linux driver at:
http://www.sis.com.tw/support/download/linux.htm
and C-Media offers a Linux driver at:
http://www.cmedia.com.tw/edl8738.htm
So, what's the problem?
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 18:14:15 -0600
"jtnews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> > Fine, you want a CD-RW, add $149, still cheaper than the dell.
> >
> > Why do you want the crappy soundblaster chip?
> >
> > The audio and network chips on this board are:
> Your post got chopped off please repost.
>
> I want the Creative Soundblaster chip because it's the most popular.
> I tend to favor the most popular chipsets to avoid compatiblity problems
> in future operating systems.
The Soundblaster 64V PCI is not like the old Soundblaster chips that
everyone is compatible with. The 64V PCI uses the ESS sound chip rather
than the original SB 16 stuff. C-Media is a very common soundchip supplier
these days. You won't run into any compatibility problems with it, and they
are really good at providing support for alternate OS's (for instance, they
have BeOS drivers).
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 19:14:52 -0500
From: jtnews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> Onboard SiS 900 fast 10/100 Base-TX PCI Ethernet Adapter
> Onboard C-Media CMI-8738 3D PCI Surround sound system
>
> SiS provides a Linux driver at:
>
> http://www.sis.com.tw/support/download/linux.htm
>
> and C-Media offers a Linux driver at:
>
> http://www.cmedia.com.tw/edl8738.htm
>
> So, what's the problem?
that's nice. see my post timestamped 19:06
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------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their cheap PC's?
Date: 4 Dec 2000 00:23:37 GMT
On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 18:51:17 -0500, jtnews wrote:
>Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>A Yamaha YMF724 driver was supported by 4Front Technologies at
>www.opensound.com at the time I bought my V400c, I just didn't know
>it at the time, and when I found out that they did support it, they
>wanted money (like $20) for the driver. I was just waiting around for
IOW, it was a binary-only driver which didn't work OOTB with major
Linux distributions.
>> but when released, it didn't work with Linux AT ALL, and even now, it's
>> pretty questionable (because of the onboard intel video which requires
>> a special kernel module)
>
>I'm a little confused by what you're saying here, are you referring to
>my
>old Dell Dimension V400c or the new Dell I was referring to in my
>previous post?
The new one, the Dimension-L
>of concern at the present time for the new Dell is support for the
>graphics >chip.
>I'm currently researching whether the Intel 3D AGP graphics chipset is
>supported in XFree86. If I find that it is supported in either XFree86
>3.3.6
>or XFree86 4.x, I'll buy the machine and test to see if Linux really
>works.
>If it does work, I'll post my results to comp.os.linux.advocacy.
Don't bother. I've set up several of them at my school. It does work,
but it doesn't work OOTB with machines that use kernel 2.2. You need
to download the driver ( an X server and a kernel module ). It might
work OOTB in distributions with kernel 2.4 and XFree86 4.
>Another issue regarding the new Dell is whether the CD-RW drive will
>work
>with Linux. I'm not sure which CD-RW drive they use. I'll have to do
>some research on this too.
Of course, you could save yourself the trouble and buy from a vendor that
will preload Linux for you. Take a look at "the computer gallery". They've
been around for some time and they do Linux.
http://www.cgallery.com/
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 02:33:25 +0200
"Chris Ahlstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Ayende Rahien wrote:
> >
> > "Chris Ahlstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > On my linux box, Navigator and Messenger use 16.9 Mb. Adding another
> > instance
> > > of Navigator adds about 0.5 Mb.
> >
> > Which version?
>
> Netscape 4.75. I think I'm going to find a separate news reader and
> mail client. Actually, I'd prefer sendmail (or even better, qmail), but
> I don't need a local mailserver.
This explains it, if you will try the same with NS6, you will run on out of
memory *very* quickly.
So it's a new product? So what?! No other application of NS6 level takes
that much memory.
> > > You have to take these numbers with a grain of salt. There are
different
> > > ways to grab memory in Win32. The question may just be how much can
you
> > > do before the "Out of Virtual Memory" box comes up (in NT 4).
> >
> > The way I set this up? I don't think I will.
> > I've never seen this message in Win2K, which is what I'm using. Both as
a
> > desktop and as a server.
>
> I've seen this message on the NT 4 systems we used, when we ran a rather
> stupid application written early on in the project, which would load large
> TIF, GIF, and other images files all at once into memory. And I suspect
that
> other of our applications leaked like bed-wetters. Some time we shall
> be able to try it under Win2K, I hope.
IIRC, this usually means that it will now increase virtual memory.
Which cause to much disk crunching but usually harmless.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.ms-windows,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 02:36:08 +0200
"Robert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > Help files are easier to read & understand than man files, and provide
just
> > as much information.
> > Reason is that MS can:
> > A> Keep them up to date.
> > B> Pay somebody to write them in mostly non-technical jargon that the
user
> > can understand quite easily.
> > C> Right click>What is?
> > D> GUI is much easier to use than text files, as it doesn't require so
much
> > knowlege. See LinuxConf as proof of this. You can recall images better
than
> > text, most of the time. (That is how you recognize stuff around you,
which
> > is builtin into Homo Sapiens before it was Homo, text is a new
invention.)
>
> yes! windoze help system is really easy to use:
>
> here's an example:
>
> me> winoze doesn detect my ---
> windoze> check if your --- is power ON and connected to your computer.
> me> doesn work
> windoze> you've found a problem that windoze help system cannot resolve,
> please contact
> *nobody* or your hardware provider for more information.
> me> fuck you
>
> but never ask microsoft about this!
First thing should be to call the store that sold you the hardware, and ask
them about it. The second thing to do was to go to the web and ask questions
about it.
------------------------------
From: "Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 21:14:38 -0500
"Chad C. Mulligan" wrote:
> "Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Conrad Rutherford wrote:
> >
> >
> > > > would have known if you had read one of my replies elsewhere in this
> > > thread.
> > > > But then again, asking a Winvocate Troll to Read before Posting is
> futile.
> > >
> > > So this tells me that you don't know how to take full advantage of all
> the
> > > features W2K offers. W2K is far superiour to Linux in every way I've
> been
> > > able to determine.
> >
> > Every way that YOU can determine, perhaps. But not every way that
> > WE can detremine.
> >
>
> What do you mean we? Got mouse in pocket?
I'm pretty sure that that claim goes for mlw, Aaron, Charlie, Rex, Matthias,
etc.
I hope they don't mind the presumption.
Colin Day
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Goodwin Acknowledges he's an idiot.
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 04 Dec 2000 01:24:00 GMT
On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 16:07:30 GMT,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 10:34:40 +0500, "sandrews"
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>> yah right, I have been running GNOME with all the goodies for 2 years
>>now and I have yet to have anything GNOME related core. I haven't had
>>any Linux app core in over a year. Now what dol the wintrolls have to say
>>now?
The usual FUD as exemplified by "Claire" below!
>
>
>Based upon the stability versions of Gnome that were available two
>years ago, we say you are full of crap.
Have the doctors finally managed to integrate all your fake alias's into one
big Wintroll now "Heather/Claire/Keys88/Steve/Amy"
Based on your lies, and fake alias's, lack of Linux knowledge and a long term
understanding of how you operate, I say your full of crap.
>
>claire
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux, and has been
up 35 minutes
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
From: Andrew Carpenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:03:56 +0000
JTK wrote:
> In article <906vnd$hga$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> "Jon A. Maxwell (JAM)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The unix or NT security model is irrelevant since the trojan gets the
> > security access of the user running it. The solution to the problem
> > is to run all code in an environment with less rights than the user.
> > Neither allow this restricting of rights to be done in any practical
> > manner.
> >
> > Java does this with applets, and potentially with any code,
>
> Pfhht. Applets as you well know are extremely limited in their
> abilities and are wholly unsuitable for anything beyond scrolling LED
> marquees and Tetris clones. Even the droolingest Sun worshipper will
> tell you that. "Any code" indeed.
Way to miss the point.
For a start, untrusted applets are infinitely more capable than untrusted
ActiveX components (which don't run at all).
The Java security model can be applied to any code, applet or not. The
"sandbox" level of security used by applets is only one option... there's a
fine-grained layer of security that can be tweaked to suit specific
purposes. (The sandbox is just a convenient packaging of settings that
prevent pretty much *all* potentially hazardous actions).
--
Andrew
[ opinions are my own ]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 20:35:58 -0500
From: jtnews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their cheap PC's?
Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
> IOW, it was a binary-only driver which didn't work OOTB with major
> Linux distributions.
what is IOW?
I don't mind if I have to tweak linux to get it to work on the hardware.
As long as there is a way to get it to work.
> Of course, you could save yourself the trouble and buy from a vendor that
> will preload Linux for you. Take a look at "the computer gallery". They've
> been around for some time and they do Linux.
>
> http://www.cgallery.com/
Here is what I got from cgallery.com:
Intel Celeron 600/FC[INTCEL600/FC]/$118.00
Asus CUV4X Motherboard[ASUCUV4X/533]/$151.00
128-MB PC100 DIMM[MMM16X64(100)]/$90.00
Mitsumi 1.44-MB Floppy[MITD359T6]/$16.00
Maxtor/WDC 4-GB Hard Disk[HDD04UDMA]/$89.52
HP CD-Writer Plus 9340I (32/10/4)[HPC4492B#ABA]/$266.00
Sound Blaster PCI 16 Sound[#50E3711000]/$32.50
4QTech SKP-690 Speakers[4QTSPK-690]/$18.40
InWin V500AU Micro-ATX Enclosure[INWIW-V500AU]/$45.00
No Modem/$0
ATI 3D Charger Video[#100-418042]/$38.75
No Monitor/$0
Mitsumi 104-Key Keyboard[MITKFK-EA4XAPS2]/$16.00
Mitsumi Scroll Mouse[MITECM-85002]/$10.00
==========
$891.17
This configuration still doesn't beat my configuration
with Dell plus my extra peripherals that I will add on.
Note that the Dell also includes 64MB
of DRAM already on board and a 10GB hard drive.
"Going with Dell, I can get a PC for $678.
I'm also planning on buying a linksys 10/100 PCI ethernet card for $14
and a Western Digital 45GB Caviar drive for $133 dollars, plus
crucial.com
(Micron) SDRAM 128MB for $71.09.
Total price with Dell, $678 + $14 + $133 + $71.09 = $896"
In summary for $896, I get a PC with 192MB of DRAM and 55GB of hard disk
space.
"By the way, you can retrieve my saved cart yourself, and play with the
options, use
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and a reference number of 1620441.
at
http://commerce.us.dell.com/dellstore/svcart_r1_access.asp "
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
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------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 23:52:34 GMT
Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>> Bill Vermillion writes:
>>> Tom Wilson wrote:
>>>> I wrote:
>>>>> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>>>>>>> Donovan Rebbechi writes:
>>>>>>>> The movement keys are placed sensibly in vi (hjkl),
>>>>>>> Which is not intuitive. First-time vi users, if they try to do
>>>>>> Big fucking deal. NOTHING about computers is "intuitive"
>>>>> Incorrect; consider the power switch.
>>>> You'd be surprised....
>>>> Never underestimate the idiot factor.
>>> Labeling the power switch 0 or 1 is definately not intuitive
>>> to someone who has not been exposed to computer logic.
>> It's more international than "Off" and "On", given that Arabic
>> numerals are used in countries where English is not the primary
>> language. And it doesn't make the power switch non-intuitive.
> Really now. In Arabian countries and any other place where
> Indian numerals are in use, a circle is the number FIVE.
Irrelevant, given that I'm not talking about Indian numerals.
Now, if you want to argue that Indian numerals are more commonplace
worldwide than Arabic numerals, then you might have a point.
> So, you have a switch, which in Indian-number using lands,
> is labeled "1 5"
Who said that power switches are labeled that way in Indian-number-
using lands?
> Yeah, that's REAAAAAAAAAAALLY fucking intuitive, moron.
Even more invective, but I've come to expect that from someone who
has yet to produce a logical argument in this discussion.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 23:57:47 GMT
Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>> Bruce Ediger writes:
>>>> Donovan Rebbechi writes:
>>>>> The movement keys are placed sensibly in vi (hjkl),
>>>> Which is not intuitive. First-time vi users, if they try to do
>>>> anything without having had a tutorial, won't get very far because
>>>> of that "every letter key is a command" approach. Most people
>>> http://www.asktog.com/papers/raskinintuit.html
>>>
>>> Jeff Raskin, "Intuitive Equals Familiar", Communications of the ACM,
>>> vol 37, no 9, Sept, 1994, pg 17.
>> Precisely why Aaron's "primitive tribesman" analogy fails. He's
>> hypothesizing someone with no familiarity (experience, to use my
>> term) with electrical appliances.
> You are a fucking idiot
Ah, the usual invective, as expected from someone who lacks a logical
argument.
> who COMPLETELY misses the point of the entire paper.
On the contrary, it is you who missed the point of the entire paper.
> "INTUITIVENESS" is an illusion,
Incorrect, Aaron, and that was definitely not the point of the entire
paper. I suggest you reread the following item from that paper:
] Intuitive = uses readily transferred, existing skills.
Note that your "primitive tribesman" has no existing skills with
electrical appliances, thus your analogy fails. Familiarity with
power switches does not have to be universal before one can be
described as "intuitive".
> you MORON.
Ah, the usual invective, as expected from someone who lacks a logical
argument.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 00:07:37 GMT
Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>>>> Tom Wilson writes:
>>>>> Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>>>>>> Tom Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> I wrote:
>>>>>>>> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>>>>>>>>>> Donovan Rebbechi writes:
>>>>>>>>>>> The movement keys are placed sensibly in vi (hjkl),
>>>>>>>>>> Which is not intuitive. First-time vi users, if they try to do
>>>>>>>>> Big fucking deal. NOTHING about computers is "intuitive"
>>>>>>>> Incorrect; consider the power switch.
>>>>>>> You'd be surprised....
>>>>>>> Never underestimate the idiot factor.
>>>>>> The power switch is NOT "intuitive"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Proof: put a primative tribesman in a room with electric appliances
>>>>>> and tell him to start the things into operation.
>>>>> I'm in agreement.
>>>> You shouldn't be. His example doesn't represent proof for a power
>>>> switch not being intuitive.
>>> Then please provide a COGENT differing explanation.
>> I already provided a cogent explanation.
Note: no response.
>>>>> The language I used, in hindsight, was wrong.
>>>> That doesn't justify your agreement.
>>>>> Read: Never underestimate the ignorance factor.
>>>>>
>>>>> I used "idiot" because i'ts been one of those nights...
>>>> Go to the store. Buy a lamp. Take it home. Do you consult a manual
>>>> to find out what to do with the cord? I hope not. Yet the hypothesized
>>> That's because people who live with electrical appliances KNOW
>>> that plugging in is part of the "installation" process.
>> So naturally you try to disprove the intuitive part of it by hypothesizing
>> someone who doesn't live with electrical appliances. That's where your
>> argument fails.
> Tholen's refusal to understand the argument is NOT a strike against
> the argument...
You're erroneously presupposing that I don't understand the argument.
Once again, try to comprehend that experience does not need to be
universal for something to be intuitive. What is intuitive to one
person might not be intuitive to another. In this particular case,
the relevant people are those who use screen editors on computers.
> merely yet another data point demonstrating why in 12 years, the
> idiot has never made a clueful post anywhere on the internet.
Yet another erroneous statement, laced with invective, but not
unexpected from someone who lacks a logical argument.
>>>> "primative tribesman" could have no idea what the cord is for. Does that
>>>> prove that the power cord is not intuitive?
>>> Precisely.
>> Yet that's what you tried to do.
Note: no response.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 00:02:30 GMT
Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>>> Tim Smith wrote:
>>>>>>> Big fucking deal. NOTHING about computers is "intuitive"
>>>>>> Incorrect; consider the power switch.
>>>>> Only to those with previous experience with power switches.
>>>>>
>>>>> Put a computer in front of a person from a remote village which
>>>>> has no electrical service, and let's see how "intuitive" the
>>>>> power switch is.
>>>> OK, now you are getting silly. Give those villagers electricity, and
>>>> all the usual electrical applicances other than computers, and let them
>>>> become comfortable with them, THEN give them a computer. The power switch
>>>> on the computer will be intuitive to them.
>>>>
>>>> You are confusing "intuitive" with "instinctive".
>>> http://www.asktog.com/papers/raskinintuit.html
>>>
>>> Jeff Raskin, "Intuitive Equals Familiar", Communications of the ACM,
>>> vol 37, no 9, Sept, 1994, pg 17.
>> Why are you citing evidence that destroys your argument, Aaron?
>> Familiarity (or experience, to use my word for it) does not have
>> to be universal before something can be declared "intuitive".
>> Here's a good rule of thumb: if you need to consult the manual,
>> it's not intuitive.
> Your willful mis-interpretation does not a good argument make.
What alleged mis-interpretation, Aaron?
------------------------------
From: Chas2K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.ms-windows,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,alt.os.linux,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 21:02:16 -0500
Limestone Cowboy wrote:
>
> my favourite is "unknown device" please load driver for unknown
> device....that is so useful.
Phone: rings... "Brrrrng"
Help desk :"Hello, Help Desk".
User :"Hello. I need help. My computer is running Windows ME".
Help desk :"How may I help you?"
User :"Well, my computer doesn't."
Help desk :"You've already said that."
--
======== * ===== www.unixstar.com =============
- Support a free and democratic Taiwan -
===============================================
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 00:08:27 GMT
Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>>> Tom Wilson wrote:
>>>> I wrote:
>>>>> Tom Wilson writes:
>>>>>> Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>>>>>>> Tom Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>> I wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>>>>>>>>>>> Donovan Rebbechi writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>> The movement keys are placed sensibly in vi (hjkl),
>>>>>>>>>>> Which is not intuitive. First-time vi users, if they try to do
>>>>>>>>>> Big fucking deal. NOTHING about computers is "intuitive"
>>>>>>>>> Incorrect; consider the power switch.
>>>>>>>> You'd be surprised....
>>>>>>>> Never underestimate the idiot factor.
>>>>>>> The power switch is NOT "intuitive"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Proof: put a primative tribesman in a room with electric appliances
>>>>>>> and tell him to start the things into operation.
>>>>>> I'm in agreement.
>>>>> You shouldn't be. His example doesn't represent proof for a power
>>>>> switch not being intuitive.
>>>> I'm agreeing that my choice of "idiot" was wrong. The hypothesis, strange as
>>>> it is, points it out. It's a matter of experience and environment, not
>>>> intellect. I used the word idiot because I had been trouble-shooting over
>>>> the phone to complete morons that evening and had a dim view of humanity as
>>>> a result.
>>>>>> The language I used, in hindsight, was wrong.
>>>>> That doesn't justify your agreement.
>>>> How do you figure? I was agreeing that my wording was off track and Aaron's
>>>> post had pointed that out.
>>>>>> Read: Never underestimate the ignorance factor.
>>>>>> I used "idiot" because i'ts been one of those nights...
>>>>> Go to the store. Buy a lamp. Take it home. Do you consult a manual
>>>>> to find out what to do with the cord? I hope not. Yet the hypothesized
>>>>> "primative tribesman" could have no idea what the cord is for. Does that
>>>>> prove that the power cord is not intuitive?
>>>> Oh for God's sake!
>>>>
>>>> His hypothesis was extreme, yes. However, it makes a valid point regarding
>>>> experience. You're bordering on anal retention, i'm afraid.
>>> Everything about Tholen is anus-related.
>> Even more invective.
^^^^^^^^^
> YOu misspelled "truth"
Incorrect, obviously.
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