Linux-Advocacy Digest #659, Volume #31 Mon, 22 Jan 01 20:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: Games? Who cares about games?
Re: New Microsoft Ad :-)
Re: Why "uptime" is important.
Re: NTFS Limitations (Was: RE: Red hat becoming illegal?) (Mathias Grimmberger)
Re: More Linux woes ("ono")
Re: I am preparing to teach a Linux class and I am soliciting advice (Bit Twister)
Re: Games? Who cares about games? (Greg Yantz)
Re: So much for Linux being more Difficult than Windows ("Gary Hallock")
3100 W2K Adv Servers deployed accross Europe ("Jan Johanson")
Re: Multiple standards don't constitute choice (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why does Win2k always fail in running time? ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Games? Who cares about games?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: Games? Who cares about games?
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:33:08 -0000
On 22 Jan 2001 16:32:28 -0500, Greg Yantz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] () writes:
>
>> On 22 Jan 2001 08:55:27 GMT, Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:41:30 -0500,
>> >mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> >>I have a Nintendo for games, why would I waste a computer on games?
>
>> >By any chance would any of your computers be sitting idle while you
>> >play games on your Nintendo? If so, why waste your money on the
>> >Nintendo??
>
>> When's the last time you saw a computer capable of playing
>> current games onsale for $100, or even $300?
>
>For me the question is "when was the last time you saw a computer
>capable of playing the kind of games you like to play onsale for
>$100, or even $300?"
Are we talking current games or just bargain bin stuff?
Even a relatively simple 2D RTS can bring older PC's to
their knees. If it's not the rendering, then it's the AI
& if it's not that then it's pushing the game itself too
hard on upper levels.
>
>Some people play games on their PC because the games they enjoy
>tend to be PC games. Consoles don't do IP networking very well...
Consoles do IP networking just fine.
Infact, several older console based micros were doing
multuser gaming long before it became trendy. Consoles
merely haven't BOTHERED to support networking for the
most part.
>
>> [deletia]
>
>> The "money pit" is rather more likely the PC.
>
>Why are you arguing over a matter of personal preference?
Spending $2000 or more for a grossly inefficient games console
should be considered in it's full context.
--
>> Yes. And the mailer should never hand off directly to a program
>> that allows the content to take control.
>
>Well most mailers can, so I guess they all suck too.
Yup.
Candy from strangers should be treated as such.
|||
/ | \
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: New Microsoft Ad :-)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:33:46 -0000
On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:51:12 GMT, Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 05:15:59 GMT, Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
[deletia]
>> Yep I sure did, caught one that is...
>>
>> A certified card carrying Penguinista.
>
>Shoot, where can I get one of those cards?
Mebbe thinkgeek will have them ready for the next Comdex... '-)
--
Freedom != Anarchy.
Some must be "opressed" in order for their
actions not to oppress the rest of us.
|||
/ | \
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: Why "uptime" is important.
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:37:32 -0000
On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 17:59:19 -0500, Mark Styles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:20:49 -0000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] () wrote:
>>On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:15:08 GMT, Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>* Office applications - I've tried StarOffice, I've tried Applixware,
>>>and I've tried a couple of other smaller offerings, but none of them
>>>seem to match up with office applications for Windows. MS Office is
>>>SLOW, but StarOffice is slower, and Applixware crashed almost every
>>
>> I've known Windows users to disagree on this point. Bear in
>> mind that StarOffice is more sluggish under Win32 than it is
>> being sent across a LAN via X.
>
>I haven't tried the win version, but the X version seemed very slow
>and bloated (not quite as bloated as MS office, but still!)
...no more so than any other application that follows the
'everything and a bag of chips in a single application'.
StarOffice probably gets more flak in this respect from
Unix users due to the fact that we have higher expectations,
lower tolerances and are subjected to bloat/bundlewear to
a lesser degree.
>
>> Beyond those "my experience is different than yours" objections,
>> you've not mentioned anything regarding actual functional details.
>> This is common to the point of being an annoyance.
>
>To be honest, I haven't used them enough to compare functionality, I'm
>not a big word-processor user. Star Office seemed as functional as MS
...strange that you would prefer the proverbial Elephant gun then?
[deletia]
--
Also while the herd mentality is certainly there, I think the
nature of software interfaces and how they tend to interfere
with free choice is far more critical. It's not enough to merely
have the "biggest fraternity", you also need a way to trap people
in once they've made a bad initial decision.
|||
/ | \
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
From: Mathias Grimmberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: NTFS Limitations (Was: RE: Red hat becoming illegal?)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 22:36:45 GMT
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> "." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
[some previous poster should get a real news reader that doesn't drop
attributions, and retaining references would be nice too...]
> > > Sometimes ago someone mentioned ADS as an NTFS exploit, but I've found
> > > absolutely no information about this.
There has been a virus using them to hide itself but I don't think it
ever appeared in the wild. And the webserver exploits. See (NT) Bugtraq.
> > ADS?
>
> Alternative Data Streams
>
> appear in the form of:
>
> filename:ADS
> ":" is the ADS delimitor.
>
> Possible documentation you would like is Linux Kernal mailing list, search
> for NTFS streams.
> (Check out Linus' idea about "Everything, but I mean *everything*, is a
> file", btw.)
Or just use MS's dokumentation of it, available on MSDN.
[snip examples about image.jpg:Thumbnail and foo.doc:Formatting]
> I'm sure you can see why this is a good feature.
It also depends on some central registry allocating the names. Not quite
a scaleable setup. But it may work if MS would choose to do that work.
[snip]
> Unfortantely, while NTFS itself supported this from the beginning, and the
> APIs are capable of reading & writing from ADS, and there are ways to
> read/write it from CLI, there is absolutely no:
>
> A> Awareness for this feature.
Which lead to security holes in webservers some time ago, AFAIK bot MS's
and others.
> B> ADS-aware NT/2K 's standards tools. Neither CLI nor Explorer will let you
> know whatever a file has ADS, how many of those, and how much the file's
> size is (they only count unnamed stream, not ADS).
Which basically means the feature is useless. I'm shure that most of the
third party "quota tools" for NT 4 didn't know about ADS either. Lots of
potential for abuse...
Hehehe, does the quota stuff in NT 5 actually know about ADS?
> C> No way to delete/rename ADS with any of NT/2K standard tools
Oh yes, give me a feature but not the tools to manage it. :-)
> The APIs exist, and it would be a trivial matter to anyone who knows even
> little programming to build a tool that would allow both B & C, it's not
> part of NT/2K itself.
Hmm. AFAIK the only way to get information about the ADS of a file up to
NT 4 was some obscure backup API. Unless that changed with NT 5 (and a
cursory scan of MSDN seems to suggest it didn't) B is not really
possible. See the documentation of the API for why not (in short:
reading the whole damn file just to find out what ADS it may have is not
an option in any (even semi-) reasonable scenario).
> problem with ADS is that you can't:
>
> A> Send a file via FTP with ADS (I'm not sure how much this is a true
> limitation, because you probably can do send file.txt:ads and have it work
> if it's NTFS - to - NTFS trasfer, didn't check it, though).
> B> Attach a file with Email/News.
> C> Move it to non-NTFS HDs. (I *think* that HPS+ might have the same
> feature, but I'm not so sure about it.)
And that in the end means the feature is totally useless. Unless you
would want to completely migrate to NTFS and stop communicating with the
outside world. BTW, are ADS supported over SMB if the server happens to
use NTFS?
There is also a funny comment about support for ADS in future FSs,
future NT versions and future support for OLE 2 structured storage
somewhere in the MSDN stuff.
MGri
--
Mathias Grimmberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Eat flaming death, evil Micro$oft mongrels!
------------------------------
From: "ono" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: More Linux woes
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:53:19 +0100
> I think anybody who spends 19-20 hours a day posting to COLA is sick.
> Sorry.
For once I agree with you. Thats why I post to ALS ;-).
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bit Twister)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.questions,comp.os.linux.admin,comp.os.linux.help,linux.redhat
Subject: Re: I am preparing to teach a Linux class and I am soliciting advice
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:09:47 GMT
man man
man -k some_word
man (shell name here)
updatedb/locate
how to use deja.com search engine
Post their os/rev when posting to usenet
How to set browser to text only
pipe command
/etc/profile /etc/bashrc ~/.bash_profile ~/.bashrc
environment variables, alias, functions.
bash/ksh shell scripting.
at, cron
On 22 Jan 2001 08:24:06 GMT, Jeff Silverman
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hi. I am an experienced Linux/UNIX sysadmin and I am getting ready to teach a class
>on Linux for
>the Communications Workers of America and WashTech. I am soliciting comments and
>suggestions from
>people in the Linux community about what I ought to teach.
>
>The students will be adults with some computer experience, most likely in MacOS or
>MS-Windows.
>
>I assume that I have to teach them the basics:
>
>1) How to login and how to logout
>2) File manipulation commands: cp, mv, rm, rmdir, ln, cat, more, find, grep, sort,
>uniq. Also I/O
>redirection and pipelines
>3) An editor. vi? emacs? Something else? No flame wars, please.
>4) Minimal sysadmin stuff - assuming they are going to run their own machines. Is
>that a reasonable
>assumption? Account management. Minimal security issues. Networking (that's a
>mouthful).
>
>It gets more complicated... GUIs. Should I teach KDE? gnome? Motif?
>
>How about shell scripting?
>
>
>What do beginning users need to know?
>
>Thank you for your time.
>
>--
>Jeff Silverman, PC guy, Linux wannabe, Java wannabe, Software engineer, husband,
>father etc.
>See my website: http://www.commercialventvac.com/~jeffs
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--
The warranty and liability expired as you read this message.
If the above breaks your system, it's yours and you keep both pieces.
Practice safe computing. Backup the file before you change it.
Do a, man command_here or cat command_here, before using it.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Games? Who cares about games?
From: Greg Yantz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 22 Jan 2001 19:13:37 -0500
[EMAIL PROTECTED] () writes:
> On 22 Jan 2001 16:32:28 -0500, Greg Yantz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] () writes:
> >> On 22 Jan 2001 08:55:27 GMT, Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:41:30 -0500,
> >> >mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >>I have a Nintendo for games, why would I waste a computer on games?
Because Nintendo games are crap that my 8 year-old nephew finds
intellectually demeaning?
> >> >By any chance would any of your computers be sitting idle while you
> >> >play games on your Nintendo? If so, why waste your money on the
> >> >Nintendo??
Indeed, if you're going to have a computer anyway why not use it for games
as well and not waste money on a console? Besides, PC's have better
games. :P
> >> When's the last time you saw a computer capable of playing
> >> current games onsale for $100, or even $300?
> >For me the question is "when was the last time you saw a computer
> >capable of playing the kind of games you like to play onsale for
> >$100, or even $300?"
> Are we talking current games or just bargain bin stuff?
Yes.
> Even a relatively simple 2D RTS can bring older PC's to
> their knees. If it's not the rendering, then it's the AI
> & if it's not that then it's pushing the game itself too
> hard on upper levels.
That was kind of my point. The cost of the platform (and your
ongoing argument about the general merits of PC vs. game console)
matters less to me than "will it play the games *I* *want*?"
> >Some people play games on their PC because the games they enjoy
> >tend to be PC games. Consoles don't do IP networking very well...
> Consoles do IP networking just fine.
Really? Which ones?
> Infact, several older console based micros were doing
> multuser gaming long before it became trendy.
This doesn't parse, unless you're redefining "console" on the
fly. In this context, "console" equates to "game console",
i.e. Nintendo, NOT "system console".
The first real-time, multi-player, networked game I played
(and IMO still one of the very best) was text-based. So?
> Consoles merely haven't BOTHERED to support networking
> for the most part.
Therefore I don't own a game console. At a bare minimum, if I
can't play netrek or CS on it, it's not a viable gaming platform.
Even better if I can run an empire client on it, or even a
server. Run any Nintendo empire servers lately?
> >> [deletia]
> >> The "money pit" is rather more likely the PC.
> >Why are you arguing over a matter of personal preference?
> Spending $2000 or more for a grossly inefficient games console
> should be considered in it's full context.
Which is?
Your basic assumptions are really quite remarkable. Why don't you
go argue with someone who spends $2000+ on a desktop PC and then
uses it only to play games? (When you find one, I'm sure you'll
get the best of him.)
-Greg
------------------------------
From: "Gary Hallock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: So much for Linux being more Difficult than Windows
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:14:00 +0500
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> If you were a Windows user you could drop the CD in the drive and it
> would do everything for you and allow you to use features that their
> software provides that you can't use.
Sure, after waiting a few days for the CD to be shipped in the mail.
You totally missed the point.
Gary
------------------------------
From: "Jan Johanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: 3100 W2K Adv Servers deployed accross Europe
Date: 22 Jan 2001 18:53:18 -0600
While little MiG tries to impress with some brochure sites...
MediaWave is deploying over 3,100 windows 2000 advanced servers all over
europe to handle multimillions of simultaneous audio and video streams.
Talk about demanding! Is there even a streaming server available for linux?
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2001/Jan01/01-22MediaWavePR.asp
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Multiple standards don't constitute choice
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:54:13 GMT
Said Pete Goodwin in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:09:22
>Bob Hauck wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure how this applies to the question of how common dialogs
>> _look_ when using different toolkits. The fact that they look different
>> is at most an inconvenience, while not being able to compile is broken
>> functionality. The former causes a moment's hesitation the first time
>> you see the new dialog, the latter can cause days or weeks of work.
>
>Sorry, it's not the look, it's the functionality. MOTIF + Gtk style file
>open/save dialogs are very different from the KDE (and StarOffice) dialogs.
Not so much that Office open/save dialogs are very different from
Windows oen/save dialogs. ;-)
[...]
>Yes that's fine, but...
[...]
>Yes that does concern me but...
[...]
>Variation is fine, but different standards for things like file open/save?
No, just different dialogs. Both are standard open/save dialogs, I
believe. Unlike Microsoft's Office dialogs, or the 'selector dialog'
things that pop up all too often.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why does Win2k always fail in running time?
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:53:51 -0500
Tom Wilson wrote:
>
> "Bobby D. Bryant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Tom Wilson wrote:
> >
> > > Also, even with logging back in, it can take a few minutes
> > > for the OS to unlock the misbehaving DLL so I can rebuild and reinstall
> > > after a quick edit. I've noticed, though, that 2K seems to take 1/2 the
> time
> > > NT4 did in that respect.
> >
> > You know the mantra of software optimization: "Make the frequent occurence
> > fastest."
> >
> > Bobby Bryant
> > Austin, Texas
> >
>
> On software optimization:
>
> Our senior programmer worked for Big Blue as a student programmer back in
> the stone age. He happened across these do-nothing loops scattered
> throughout some source code. They were actually documented as P.P.I.. Just
> those three letters. When curiosity finally got the better of him he asked
> someone what it meant and why those loops were in there, he was told they
> meant Planned Program Improvement. Removing the do nothing loops in
> subsequent releases sped the program up meaning you could advertise it as
> faster and better. This story has an urban myth vibe to it, but, if you can
> remember back that far, newer software versions almost never were that much
> different than prior versions and always ran a small bit faster.
>
Knowing IBM's business practices at that time, it would not surprise me.
They once did something similar with a whole computer. They had a card
in the back-plane that did nothing except grab the DMA line periodically
(several times/second). If you wanted to upgrade your machine, the IBM
technician would come out and PULL THE CARD (and charge yout $x00,000 to do it!)
> Makes one stop and think...
>
> --
> Tom Wilson
> Sunbelt Software Solutions
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: Games? Who cares about games?
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:56:32 -0000
On 22 Jan 2001 19:13:37 -0500, Greg Yantz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] () writes:
>
>> On 22 Jan 2001 16:32:28 -0500, Greg Yantz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] () writes:
>
>> >> On 22 Jan 2001 08:55:27 GMT, Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >> >On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 00:41:30 -0500,
>> >> >mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> >> >>I have a Nintendo for games, why would I waste a computer on games?
>
>Because Nintendo games are crap that my 8 year-old nephew finds
>intellectually demeaning?
This still isn't a technological limitation. The progenitors
of most of today's PC game genre's had their origins on
console systems.
Besides, even Nintendos aren't necessarily limited to super
mario world and mario karts. There's significant overlap
between current consoles and PC's actually. What you're more
likely to find only on PCs are the really mindless and or
violent fare.
>
>> >> >By any chance would any of your computers be sitting idle while you
>> >> >play games on your Nintendo? If so, why waste your money on the
>> >> >Nintendo??
>
>Indeed, if you're going to have a computer anyway why not use it for games
>as well and not waste money on a console? Besides, PC's have better
>games. :P
A PC can be quite suitable for non-gaming consumer PC use
and be grossly inadequate for gaming, or simply inadequate
enough to be annoying. You have to know well enough to get
good PC gaming components and then pay for them. You then
may or may not have to deal with hardware an software
integration issues that stem from PC's being random
collections of spare parts.
>
>> >> When's the last time you saw a computer capable of playing
>> >> current games onsale for $100, or even $300?
>
>> >For me the question is "when was the last time you saw a computer
>> >capable of playing the kind of games you like to play onsale for
>> >$100, or even $300?"
>
>> Are we talking current games or just bargain bin stuff?
>
>Yes.
>
>> Even a relatively simple 2D RTS can bring older PC's to
>> their knees. If it's not the rendering, then it's the AI
>> & if it's not that then it's pushing the game itself too
>> hard on upper levels.
>
>That was kind of my point. The cost of the platform (and your
>ongoing argument about the general merits of PC vs. game console)
>matters less to me than "will it play the games *I* *want*?"
OTOH, you're still left with a $2000 game console.
>
>> >Some people play games on their PC because the games they enjoy
>> >tend to be PC games. Consoles don't do IP networking very well...
>
>> Consoles do IP networking just fine.
>
>Really? Which ones?
Amiga & ST.
Then there's the Dreamcast and PSX2.
>
>> Infact, several older console based micros were doing
>> multuser gaming long before it became trendy.
>
>This doesn't parse, unless you're redefining "console" on the
>fly. In this context, "console" equates to "game console",
>i.e. Nintendo, NOT "system console".
No, it's simply consistent with the definitions of the
day and even now. An Amiga is little more than a Dreamcast
with an internal floppy drive, mouse and keyboard. They
both represent a single static specification of hardware,
one that can be used to more effectively program despite
technological limitations.
>
>The first real-time, multi-player, networked game I played
>(and IMO still one of the very best) was text-based. So?
>
>> Consoles merely haven't BOTHERED to support networking
>> for the most part.
>
>Therefore I don't own a game console. At a bare minimum, if I
>can't play netrek or CS on it, it's not a viable gaming platform.
>Even better if I can run an empire client on it, or even a
>server. Run any Nintendo empire servers lately?
No you are merely spouting gibberish.
Whether or not a platform can run game servers is entirely
irrelevant to the issue what makes a good game client
platform. In all likelihood, a good game server machine
could get away with possessing characterstics that make it
a VERY poor "game machine".
>
>> >> [deletia]
>
>> >> The "money pit" is rather more likely the PC.
>
>> >Why are you arguing over a matter of personal preference?
>
>> Spending $2000 or more for a grossly inefficient games console
>> should be considered in it's full context.
>
>Which is?
>
>Your basic assumptions are really quite remarkable. Why don't you
>go argue with someone who spends $2000+ on a desktop PC and then
>uses it only to play games? (When you find one, I'm sure you'll
>get the best of him.)
What else do YOU use your PC for that justifies paying the
extra money for reasonable gaming components?
You can build a reasonable low profile non-game PC for
about as much as a new games console would cost. Can
you say the same for a PC game machine?
--
Unless you've got the engineering process to match a DEC,
you won't produce a VMS.
You'll just end up with the likes of NT.
|||
/ | \
------------------------------
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