Linux-Advocacy Digest #198, Volume #33 Fri, 30 Mar 01 15:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: Richard Stallman what a tosser, and lies about free software (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why does Open Source exist, and what way is it developing? ("Andy Walker")
Re: MS patents ones and zeros... (Daniel Tryba)
Re: Communism (Roberto Alsina)
Stress Co-operation, not Hateful Competition (Adrian Pepper [MFCF])
Re: Communism (Bob G)
Re: I regretfully conclude that Linux is a piece of CRAP. (Roy Culley)
Re: Linux dying (Peter =?ISO-8859-1?Q?K=F6hlmann?=)
Re: Communism (Marada C. Shradrakaii)
Re: Communism (Marada C. Shradrakaii)
Re: All your PCI slot are belong to Microsoft. (Marada C. Shradrakaii)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,misc.int-property
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman what a tosser, and lies about free software
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 19:21:43 GMT
Said Les Mikesell in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:26:04
>"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> Said Les Mikesell in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Thu, 29 Mar 2001 03:32:18
>> >"Jeffrey Siegal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> [...]
>> >> As long as the definitions are clear and well written (which is
>entirely
>> >> the case in terms of the FSF's "free software") it does not take a law
>> >> degree to understand them, nor should anyone be confused simply because
>> >> they are unwilling to take a few minutes to read what the definitions
>> >> are in a given context.
>> >
>> >There is nothing at all clear in the GPL regarding the relationship
>> >of shared libraries to each other and the linking program, or the
>> >case where a kit is provided containing all parts except the
>> >GPL'd code which the user obtains for himself.
>>
>> Not in relation to your understanding of copyright, perhaps. To a
>> reasonable person's understanding of software, however, it is clear, and
>> the contrary issues you raise about shared libraries and linked programs
>> are what is unclear. Exactly how do you rely on another author's work
>> for yours to be valuable without deriving your work from his?
>
>Exactly how do you imagine a separate library that existed before
>the GPL'd component would become 'derived from' this GPL'd
>component if they happen to be linked together at some future date?
The same way you imagine that software has functional purpose but is
still covered by copyright.
>Yet the GPL prohibits distribution of GPL'd components that link
>to anything but standard system libraries. What really happens is
>that each part does it's own work independently, just like a literary
>or research work that refers to some other independent work that
>you are expected to read to understand the whole context - and
>each work may have its separate terms for obtaining the right to
>use it.
If the part were 'doing its own work', then it wouldn't require other
parts to do work for it, would it?
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
From: "Andy Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why does Open Source exist, and what way is it developing?
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:20:58 -0000
In business, companies get fat, greedy and complacent, to name but a
few, BT, IBM and Microsoft. As a result, when something newer, fitter and
leaner comes along such as Linux, they are unable to adapt and quickly get
stripped down in size until they change their ways.
Nature is very similar. Dinosaurs died out due to their inability to
adapt to cold weather, being cold-blooded they were not suited to the
conditions. However some, such as crocodiles, did survive due to their
ability to last long periods of time without food and others such as lizards
due to their small demands on food sources. As a result, both species
survived and went on to be extremely successful.
The facts are basically, adapt to survive or become extinct. The only other
major factor is diversity, without cell mutation species wouldn't change at
all. The same holds true for operating systems. They need to change to
support many different enviroments to become really successful, scalability
in a word. Microsoft CE is struggling with the handheld market and with the
very top end server market. Linux is looking to also get into these markets,
the fittest and leanest will survive!
------------------------------
From: Daniel Tryba <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: MS patents ones and zeros...
Date: 30 Mar 2001 19:32:22 GMT
Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.cnn.com@sci-tech@3520040376/new_010325/alert/breakingnews.html
Lynx doens't understand these kind of urls, so if you wanna look at it
with lynx go to:
http://centralhosting.net/new_010325/alert/breakingnews.html
instead.
--
Daniel Tryba
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roberto Alsina)
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,misc.survivalism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.singles
Subject: Re: Communism
Date: 30 Mar 2001 19:43:30 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 19:21:36 GMT, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Said Aaron R. Kulkis in alt.destroy.microsoft on Fri, 30 Mar 2001
> [...]
>>If someone attempts to enter your country, unanounced, without making
>>proper contact with the appropriate authorities (customs officials,
>>border patrol, air traffic control), then they are a legitimate target
>>for those personnel charged with the DUTY of defending the border.
Ok, then you support the right of the Cuban government to shoot down
Cessnas.
>>What's the difference between "illegal immigrants" and "invading
>>army" other than numbers?
>
>Nothing, if you're a paranoid schizophrenic.
Indeed.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Adrian Pepper [MFCF])
Subject: Stress Co-operation, not Hateful Competition
Date: 30 Mar 2001 19:16:49 GMT
Okay, so I just saw on my boss' screen the picture of a giant Tux
squashing the Microsoft buildings like he was Godzilla.
I thought it looked pretty funny,
But realistically, there is no reason Linux can't and shouldn't be
touted as a complementary aid to Microsoft Windows use, as opposed to a
competive adversary.
I have a dual-boot ME/RedHat7.0 system, and find that Linux makes a
great Microsoft Windows systems administration tool. Lots of things I
should theoretically try and get working under Linux (e.g. USB CD-R/RW)
I haven't bothered to do yet, because it's relatively easy to transfer
files back-and-forth, or simply work with them in my third "shared"
partition. Most of the time, for peace-of-mind, I don't have my main
Microsoft Windows partition mounted when I'm running Linux, but do so
only occasionally. E.g. to use "find" to ferret out potentially
embarassing stuff from the browser caches which Microsoft Windows
insists on hiding from you.
Personal records and stuff I prefer to maintain in KISS text files,
using shell scripts and perl and stuff to manipulate them (under
Linux). Right now browsing, and remote access is all under Microsoft
Windows (or using floppies). Backups I do by putting tar files into
the shared partition and copying them to a CD-R when I'm running
Microsoft Windows. My web pages I develop under Linux, previewing with
Netscape under RedHat as file: URLs (though I'm tempted to run a Web
server to allow more things to be tested, e.g. .htaccess, Indexes, even
CGIs). While investigating ECMAScript I might send some pages over to
the Microsoft Windows partitions for viewing there.
But in any case, I don't see why Linux and Microsoft Windows need to be
viewed as alternatives. As a consumer, I want both. I don't want
either side eliminating my versatility by eliminating the other
option.
My dream machine would be a laptop containing at least three distinct
machines all with access to the display and as many other devices as is
practical. One machine would be Linux, the other Microsoft Windows,
and the third would be a dedicated file server useable by both of
them. But hey, you might be able to persuade me to have a MacOS system
running on a fourth internal machine, too.
As a consumer, I want to be able to drink Coca-Cola sometimes, and
Seven-Up, Mountain Dew, Canada Dry, and even plain old water at other
times.
I want to be able to own a Subaru but still occasionally rent a Chevy
truck, or ride my bicycle.
Viewing things as a consumer, no product is "the best". It is
essential to me as a consumer that the diversity remains in all
things.
And this applies to operating systems and other software as well.
Adrian Pepper
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob G)
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,misc.survivalism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.singles
Subject: Re: Communism
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:37:45 GMT
On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 04:50:22 GMT, T. Max Devlin
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Said Bob G in alt.destroy.microsoft on Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:10:12 GMT;
> [...]
>>I love my country ! It's the politicians I don't
>>like or trust.
>
>So does that make you patriotic, or idealistic?
It makes me one who wishes he'd paid attention to where these things
get cross-posted.
In direct answer to your question, I am patriotic and idealistic.
Also ... realistic. You can be both idealistic and a realist, you
know.
In the case of my country. I love my country. Plain and simple. As
concerns the government, yes ... I am idealistic enough to hold them
up and exam them in comparison to some idealistic standards of
behavior. And am enough of a realist to understand they, the
politicans, will never exactly match my idealistic criteria.
But ... they WILL come closer to staying on track and honest if I, and
you, and others .... do not automatically rely simply on trust ... and
examine what they do closely an hold them accountable and responsible.
Remember the old saying about 'Keeping an honest man honest ...'.
There is truth to the idea.
There are folks, some, who will self police their own actions and hold
to strict principle ... all on their own.
But realistically, there are few such.
For the larger majority of humans, who for the most part are decent
enough people, the realistic person understands they can stray from
the ideal straight line.
i.e. Take your basically honest, decent citizen. Ideally, said
citizen is utterly honest, completely law abiding, etc. Reality is
different. Person strays a bit from the ideal. i.e. One fellow who
works for me. A basically good man. A technician. Now, Bob pays
attention to things. Not that I always LOOK like I'm paying
attention. I do not believe in micromanaging or nitpicking people.
So I am aware of the fact he takes the occassional company paid for
pen home, and likely a pad of paper. Walking by his private car once,
I noted fact that on seat of car he'd tossed a coil of wire. Company
owned wire. Probably had something at home to fix. Was no big
amount. I ignored it. Likewise I have no doubt that he grabs the odd
screw, bolt, nut etc that he might need at home. Know that one day I
dropped by. He just off work, and he was refastening a part on his
car that'd come lose with a couple screws belonging to the company.
The box of screws, a brand not available in your neighborhood hardware
store on the ground next to him. I 'didn't notice'. Also quite aware
that one weekend he 'borrowed' a gasoline powered, 5000 psi pressure
washer. I happened to have reason to go by the tool crib that
Saturday, it gone. Reappeared by Monday morning. Dribbling water.
Obviously having been used. In this case I just casually mentioned to
him I hoped it wasn't habit or often, and mentioned that if it broke
while he had it for personal use ... I expected HIM to fix it and pay
for the repair.
Just keeping him honest ... enough ... don'tcha know.
Just like one day he was talking about big wiring project at home.
General friendly chat. I just mentioned it was a lot of wire, and as
we at his tool and parts crib .... I looked significantly at spools of
wire on racks then at him. Bright fellow caught my meaning. 'Oh no,
boss ... I won't yank your leg. I've grabbed a bit here and there.
Scrap lenghts. I wouldn't take that much. I bought wire. Honest,
wanna see the receipt?' I didn't ask for it. I pay attention. His
requisitions for material in line with company work done. I'm not
gonna nitpick him. When he gets wire by the 2000 ft spool, and
perhaps he grabs the odd lenght. I'm not gonna be pissed. Now if he
started grabbing the 2000 ft spools ... he and I will talk. I just
keep an eye on things ... to keep him reasonably straight.
I USED to have a tech who went over the bounds. Doesn't work for me
any more, needless to say. In fact I filed criminal charges against
him. When SOB starts filling private vehicle with company gas, and
doing private, afterhours work for pay using company parts and tools
... I get pissed.
I do not expect that even basically good, decent people ... are
perfect. But there are limits.
Problem is, in the case of politicans, even the best intentioned, if
yah don't keep and eye on them, if you trust TOO MUCH ... all too easy
for them to stray too far. Due to position and power, the
possiblities for abuse, wrongful action, corruption, etc are far
greater, and of greater consequence ... than as with ordinary people.
To give another example. I happen to know about a certain telecom
tech, who doesn't work for me. In his area, there is a lady who owns
and runs her own business. Not a huge business. But she makes a
living from it, and has 6 employees. Her business heavily dependent
on voice and digital comm lines. Now, she gets nothing for free, nor
expects it. But let's just say, she is always exceptionally pleasant
to this telecom guy. Lots of praise, thanks, etc. Let's say she
makes a point of making personal conversation, inquiring about health,
yakking about his life and hobbies, etc. After a quick response and
repair she insists on buying him lunch. He refuses to let her pay,
but accepts her company for lunch. She's very flattering, profusely
grateful, etc. There are other lunches and coffee breaks together.
One day, she's put in an order for new T1 line and some other gear.
All of which she pays for, the going rate. But the telecom guy goes
thru great effort to make SURE line goes in on time, in fact it's done
ahead of schedule, all installations flawless, tweaked to perfection,
etc. Guy sweats and goes thru more work than he'd normally put into
such installation elsewhere. Everything perfect. This on a Friday.
Oops, Saturday morning a flaw shows up. Business lady now knows guy's
home phone number calls 'Please, can yah do something?' ZIP ... guy
goes to her business, his own vehicle, his own time, and quickly
corrects problem. Lady VERY appreciative. Oh, he's so nice, and
smart too. Is the equipment very complicated? Must be. 'I've never
seen a switching office.' Guy offers to show her. They get to small
utility building, she's suitably impressed and awed ... and still ever
so grateful about his above and beyond help. And, next thing yah
know, she's on desk and he's getting an extra reward.
Chuckle, true story. I know. Had to be out that day myself. Walked
in on them. Fortunately, timing right. They were done, just
snuggling and cuddling. Tho she was a bit ... ummm ... embarassed as
only wearing her blouse when I walked in.
I found out the whole story later, as he was fumbling, stuttering and
trying to explain. <Shrug> I knew his service record. We track jobs
completed, etc. Top tech. Good numbers. His performance record for
clearing trouble calls well above average. I told him to forget it.
Except next time ... not in the switch room.
Now ... is that lady taking unfair advantage of the 'system'. And the
tech aiding her? Of course. Chuckle no doubt in my mind when she
phones in a complaint she'll get a repair faster than the average
customer. Tech knows the system, knows how to make things happen
faster, when need be.
But this sort of thing pretty harmless. He is watched and tracked,
via a reporting system. For each job done we maintain computer
records. Did customer get assistance within specified lapsed time
limits, did they get adequate work (did he do it right the first
time), etc. So he can't help her by making another customer suffer.
Will show up in our reports.
However, consider the politician who lets self be ... ummm
...persuaded by a pretty thing. And this happens, or is at least
attempted, on a routine basis. Perhaps she convinces him (or her)
that her group deserves preferential treatment. Now what happens?
Perhaps the interests she represents now get that multimillion dollar
bundle of tax money. Only so much money. So her group gets, another
group left sucking hind tit. Or perhaps she 'convinces' him that
group she is with deserves a special tax break. Politician knows this
won't fly, unless at same time he proposes that tax break, he balances
it with a proposal to make it up by taxing another group even more
than currently.
Etc.
Yep, DAMN straight I'm not about to TRUST politicans. I want records,
I want things above board, and I want to be able to take a look time
to time and let them know I'm looking ... to make sure they don't
stray too far from an idealistic 'straight line'.
Being in the position of power they are in ... even little 'strays'
off the straight and narrow have far reaching effects.
As far as the 'don't like' part of my sig line. I've met and
personally known several politicians. Only ones I've liked have been
few, very few. All of whom were straight forward, blunt ... and said
what they thought whether I liked it or not, agreed or not. Such are
mighty few and far in-between. Usually don't last long in politics.
Bob
I love my country ! It's the politicians I don't
like or trust.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roy Culley)
Subject: Re: I regretfully conclude that Linux is a piece of CRAP.
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 01:09:29 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Brian Rourke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 20:06:33 GMT, "Jeff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>So Linux is a piece of crap because you're too dumb to figure out how
>>to install it?
>
>
> Yes, that's right. And I'm the only one. Really, the installation
> process is so easy and hassle free.
It can be and then there can be problems like you have had. However it
appears you have done nothing to seek help from the newsgroups most
likely to give it to you. Some people here have tried to help but this
is an advocacy group. Seek and you shall find. If you are not a troll
ask for help in the appropriate newgroups and I'm sure you will end up
with a Linux system that will amaze you.
> You can go back in your hole now.
There again you probably are a troll.
------------------------------
From: Peter =?ISO-8859-1?Q?K=F6hlmann?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux dying
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 21:36:49 +0200
Chad Myers wrote:
>
> "Craig Kelley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>>
>> > But still, it's manually initiated. Not to mention the fact that
>> > the FCC won't allow you to use your cell phone in-flight.
>>
>> How's NET going to communicate then?
>
> Well, it'll be however the airline or ticketing web site implements
> it, but the demos that MS showed with Expedia.com was that, when
> you purchase a ticket, you check off the people you wish to be
> notified of your arrival during the checkout porition of your
> purchasing session. It's quite simple, really.
>
> It knows when your arrival time is and will send out an IM at
> a specific time before your arrival.
>
Well, that�s different from simply calling via cell-phone just before
boarding ?
Which, by the way, would be even more accurate.
Reeeeal bad example, Chaddy boy. That really sounds like a typical
MS-solution waiting for a problem.
Peter
--
Microsoft's Product Strategy: "It compiles, let's ship it!"
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marada C. Shradrakaii)
Date: 30 Mar 2001 19:53:28 GMT
Subject: Re: Communism
>then they are a legitimate target
>for those personnel charged with the DUTY of defending the border.
>
However, when they do not pose a significant physical threat to property or
lives, does that make killing them a valid response?
>What's the difference between "illegal immigrants" and "invading
>army" other than numbers?
Intent? Level of armament? Willingness to work and obey the laws and not
merely plunder/destroy?
--
Marada Coeurfuege Shra'drakaii
Colony name not needed in address.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marada C. Shradrakaii)
Date: 30 Mar 2001 20:02:39 GMT
Subject: Re: Communism
>capitalism
>takes that greed and selfishness and uses it to motivate people to
>do good things for their neighbors anyway...
>
Please explain how. Won't it eventually reach a state (like, to borrow from
other cola threads, the various IP markets) where a given person/group extracts
exactly as much from its neighbours as he can without irking them to the degree
where they actually seek alternatives.
I guess this could be considered a benefit for them-- they're not being as
screwed as they could be.
--
Marada Coeurfuege Shra'drakaii
Colony name not needed in address.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marada C. Shradrakaii)
Date: 30 Mar 2001 20:02:55 GMT
Subject: Re: All your PCI slot are belong to Microsoft.
>It would be a _major_ tech-support headache if consumers who
>>didn't realize this, decided to reposition cards just to arrange the
>>connectors to suit their tastes.
>
Just to suit their tastes? In general, you have to rearrange cards to deal
with large/awkward connectors. For the large antenna to fit on my TV card,
either it or the sound card or both had to move. Linux, unsurprisingly, didn't
miss a beat. Windows made it an all-afternoon struggle.
Another fun trick. Find the 'ACPI' setting in your BIOS. Set it to the
opposite of whatever it's at now. Enjoy the fireworks. Apparently, this
actually requires a reinstall of 2000, but on 98SE it's pretty fun too.
--
Marada Coeurfuege Shra'drakaii
Colony name not needed in address.
------------------------------
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