Linux-Advocacy Digest #306, Volume #34 Mon, 7 May 01 22:13:02 EDT
Contents:
Re: The long slow slide to Microsoft.NOT (Johan Kullstam)
Re: Windows makes good coasters ("Tom Wilson")
Re: Justice Department LOVES Microsoft! (Rick)
Re: the Boom, Boom department (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: the Boom, Boom department (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: the Boom, Boom department ("Tom Wilson")
Re: Just how commercially viable is OSS?... (Was Re: Interesting MS speech on
OSS/GPL ( /. hates it so it's good)) ("Tom Wilson")
Re: where's the linux performance? ("Tom Wilson")
Re: Justice Department LOVES Microsoft! ("Tom Wilson")
Re: Why does Flatfoot feel so threatened? (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: Why does Flatfoot feel so threatened? (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: The long slow slide to Microsoft.NOT ("Tom Wilson")
Re: Linux Advocacy ("Paolo Ciambotti")
Re: WinTrolls and advocates are the ones who are geeks! (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: MS Must be getting really desperate ("Paolo Ciambotti")
Re: Just how commercially viable is OSS?... (Was Re: Interesting MS speech on
OSS/GPL ( /. hates it so it's good)) (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: Windows makes good coasters ("Chad Myers")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.linux,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: The long slow slide to Microsoft.NOT
From: Johan Kullstam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 01:25:49 GMT
"Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:9d4map$3c$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > "Giuliano Colla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Ayende Rahien wrote:
> >
> >
> > > > Actually, I think that the reverse is true.
> > > > I know a little of Pascal, and the pointers that Pascal have can stump
> > you
> > > > if you are transferring your Pascal knowledge to C/C++.
> > > > Pointers aren't an easy concept in the first place, and C & C++ way of
> > doing
> > > > it are nearly identical to the way the machine does it, so it's easier
> > to
> > > > learn the C's way, and then learn Pascal, which limits your ability to
> > use
> > > > them.
> > > > As a note, a good C++ programmer shouldn't have much use for raw
> > pointers.
> > > > The standard library provides for nearly everything that you need to
> use
> > a
> > > > pointer for, and it does it much better than the average programmer
> can
> > hope
> > > > to do. More safely, too.
> > > > The big plus of C++ is that you don't have to pay for things that you
> > don't
> > > > need.
> > >
> > > That's exactly my point. Pascal properly hides what shouldn't be
> > > normally used by an application developer (i.e. dirty tricks with
> > > pointers). You can do in Pascal anything you can do in C, but you must
> > > state very explicitly, so that you're made aware of what you're doing.
> > > Once you've learned, you may start playing with C++, if you feel like,
> > > but your background will make you avoid all the trivial errors you can
> > > do with C++, without the compiler telling you, and learning only at run
> > > time.
> >
> > I don't think so, I think that it's better to know *how* it's done, and
> > except assembler, C is the best way to learn how it's done, and then move
> to
> > the restrictions of Pascal.
> > And I'm talking as someone who did Pascal first.
>
> While I'll agree with the earlier assessment that you can do anything in
> PASCAL you can in C
not in _standard_ pascal you can't.
one *huge* weakness of pascal is that it interprets vectors and arrays
of different sizes as wholy different types. thus if you make a
procedure to handle strings of lenght 10, you need another, distinct,
procedure to handle strings of length 11.
> (Especially using Borland's implementation which I have
> since v3.0), you'll miss out on key points of C/C++ if you stick to that
> mindset. Dealing with templates and smart-pointers can be rather difficult
> if you're thinking PASCAL - Particularly when you get into OLE VARIANT
> types. Data can be far more abstracted than PASCAL will allow and your
> clients need not know or care what's being tossed at them. This sort of
> thing seemed anethma to me when I started out and I had to fight to make
> sense of it. You see the beauty of it eventually, but, strong-type thinking
> will slow the process.
--
J o h a n K u l l s t a m
[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Don't Fear the Penguin!
------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux,alt.linux,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows makes good coasters
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 01:28:02 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Mon, 07 May 2001 06:58:09 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John
> Travis) wrote:
>
>
> >I've been lucky media wise. I stuck with Imation discs for a long time,
just
> >becuase they never failed me. The last spindle I bought was a 100 pack
of PNY
> >16X 800meg...cost...10 dollars (rebate ;-). Not a coaster in the bunch.
>
>
> I use Imation discs as well and they work great. Same problems with
> the rebates though. You will eventually get it just be real patient :)
Be it a rebate or a coupon, I always lose then stumble across it again at
least one year after expiration. The most glaring example being when, while
visiting home last year, I stumbled across a rebate coupon from the
QuadDensity 5 1/4" disks my old DecPro350 used.
As for CDR's, I prefer TDK Extended. So far, only one out of one hundred has
been bad (And that one was visibly so).
------------------------------
From: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Justice Department LOVES Microsoft!
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 21:30:06 -0400
Daniel Johnson wrote:
>
> "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Daniel Johnson wrote:
> > > > They did do it. The AARD code was active in the betas.
> > >
> > > C'mon. Even you don't take this line of "argument"
> > > seriously, do you?
> >
> > Once again. what is it going to take with you? Internal memos have been
> > posted. Quotes from M$ execs have been posted. All describing a way to
> > sabotage DR-DOS. The code was active in the betas. It threw up bogus
> > error messages. The messages were meant to scare of beta testers, as
> > stated in the memos. But -YOU- dont believe it.
>
> It's wired. You *did* post the memos, and anyone
> can see that they don't say what you want them to say.
>
They say what they say. You seem to be ignoring facts.
> It doesn't faze you in the least.
>
> Kinda creepy.
>
Yes, you are.
> [snip]
> > > You know, like Lotus SmartSuite. I think there
> > > was also a "WordPerfect Office", too.
> > >
> > > They still do it.
> >
> > Are seriously saying an Office suite is thae same as Micorosoft forcing
> > vendors to take apps and/or OS/app combos?
> >
> > You are definitely an idiot.
>
> "apps and/or OS/app combos"?
>
> I think the way you phrased that says thgat
> even you don't really think that MS somehow
> forced OEMS to distribute Office.
1. You dont think.
2. Dont tell me what I think.
3. Microsoft forced bundled apps and/or OS/app combos
4. name any other software company that did that.
--
Rick
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: the Boom, Boom department
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 13:33:54 +1200
"~=BF~" wrote:
> =
> > > I'd have done this ages ago, but I have an iMac! A big pret=
ty
> > > gumdrop that's impossible to upgrade!
> > >
> > > Richard
> =
> > iMac's are all good, esp. with MacOS X.
> =
> ai laddie... cept it don't have the foggiest what a cdrw is.
hmm, you are not up todate, are you? Apple has already released CD-R
software for MacOS X (around a week ago). It was included in their 2nd
service pack which makes it now 10.0.2.
Matthew Gardiner
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: the Boom, Boom department
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 13:35:22 +1200
> > Indeed. Heres a figure:
> >
> > 450mhz PIII ATA/66 machine with 2x AGP with a straight shot NVIDIA GEFORCE
> > 256 in it, running mandrake linux w/xfree 4.0.3 and the latest NVIDIA drivers...
> >
> > Also running w2k with the latest NVIDIA drivers
> >
> > Unreal Tournament, fullscreen, 1600x1280, 32 bit color depth:
> > Linux: 60fps, average
> > Windows: 33fps, average
>
> Uh, no.
I don't run those sorts of games anyway, so the stats are irrelivant to
me.
Matthew Gardiner
------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: the Boom, Boom department
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 01:38:03 GMT
"Brent R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
<snip>
> > >> Linux is not yet a credible games platform.
> > > Not yet, however, OpenGL and OpenAL are both taking shape quickly.
> > > Also, if you were playing these games with Xfree86 3.3.6, then yes, it
> > > would be shit house, however, 4.03 is a milestone in terms of
> > > performance etc when playing games.
> >
> > Indeed. Heres a figure:
> >
> > 450mhz PIII ATA/66 machine with 2x AGP with a straight shot NVIDIA
GEFORCE
> > 256 in it, running mandrake linux w/xfree 4.0.3 and the latest NVIDIA
drivers...
> >
> > Also running w2k with the latest NVIDIA drivers
> >
> > Unreal Tournament, fullscreen, 1600x1280, 32 bit color depth:
> > Linux: 60fps, average
> > Windows: 33fps, average
>
> Uh, no.
Sorry. Sounds about right. Frame rates have always been higher under Linux
(Using older Voodoo 3 but thinking about trying a GEFORCE) than under
Windows for me too.
At any rate, I seldom play games under Linux and couldn't care less. That's
what Windows 98 is for AFAIC.
------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Just how commercially viable is OSS?... (Was Re: Interesting MS speech
on OSS/GPL ( /. hates it so it's good))
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 01:39:35 GMT
"Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9d6u6r$n4i$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> > Is this the name of Ellison's new Yacht?
> >>
> >> No, no, no... everyone knows the name of his new Yacht is:
> >> "I HAVE A BIGGER PENIS THAN BILL GATES"
> >
> > He must feel the need to have that cause he sure has less money than
> > Bill.
>
>
> Do you because you have less money than Bill?
>
He may. Just how much of Bill Gate's fortune is actually liquid cash?
------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: where's the linux performance?
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 01:44:55 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
<snip>
> >Like perl? python? C? typing? a fast and powerful cli?
> >Then you have nirvana.
> >Otherwise you have 'cool', but NOT something for a day to day
recreational
> >user.
> >At all.
> >
>
> Well put!!!
>
> You have obviously experienced the joy of Linux.
Not so fast, flatfish, you're wearing your new mantra out!
Let's sharpen that wit up a bit! You used to be entertaining!
------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Justice Department LOVES Microsoft!
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 01:52:55 GMT
"Daniel Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:HeAJ6.8651$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > "T. Max Devlin" wrote:
> > People like Daniel Johnson are closet-dicatators and wannabe
slavemasters,
> > just like all those Marxist nerds salivating every night over a chance
to
> > wreak revenge over their high school classmates who bullied them.
> >
> > How about, Max, when the anti-enslavement revolution comes, we throw
> > Mr. Johnson up against the wall with all the commie assholes?
>
> Now now, a point of order: I'm really very right wing,
> politically.
>
> If you want to attack me with political insults, you should
> be calling me a *nazi*, not a commie.
>
> *Especially* on economics. I think trusts are good and unions
> bad. Down with the minimum wage! Up with sweatshops! :D
>
> I just love George W.
>
> Mind you, I'm not saying we should have an off-topic
> political discussion here.
>
> I just want you to get your insults straight.
>
> I'm not a bleeding-heart pinko punk. I'm a capitalist
> running-dog swine-pig.
>
> Got it? :D
Atta Boy! That's the spirit! Flower children be gone! Gawd bless the dollar
and keep them damned kids a-workin', Katie Lee Gifford needs 20000 sweaters
by closing time!
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why does Flatfoot feel so threatened?
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 13:54:19 +1200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> If you or I were Chase Bank or Exxon or some other fortune 100 company
> they would, but unfortunately we are not so we don't count.
>
> MS support is truly pitiful, although their webiste has gotten a lot
> better in recent months. It was among the worst on the net followed
> closely by IBM's.
>
> Flatfish
WHen you ring up and get asked how you are going to pay for the support,
I hanged up the phone. I now run a Solaris box with Forte Developer
C/C++ 6, and although I, in theory, donot receive support (as I have no
support contract), SUN New Zealand have always been more than happy to
help out.
Matthew Gardiner
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why does Flatfoot feel so threatened?
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 13:58:54 +1200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> I suppose, but it was just a quickie and I know how to use Powerpoint
> already, not that I like it at all though.
>
> Flatfish
>
oh, just remembered, Powerpoint has the same feature as well (aka, show
on the go). StarOffice is shithouse when compared to the likes of Lotus
Smart Suite and Wordperfect. I am definately happy with paying on $399
for Wordperfect. Even if Microsoft ported it to linux, Yeah Right! (off
the Tui Beer ad), I still wouldn't use it. I am a committed Wordperfect
man, does all what I need with minimum fuss, and no clippy (yeah!).
Matthew Gardiner
------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.linux,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: The long slow slide to Microsoft.NOT
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 01:59:17 GMT
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9d6sk8$7ap$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
<snip>
> Buffer overflows can be quite easily prevented with a bound chechking.
> Try to offer *that* to a C programmer, and see how violently he will
object.
By avoiding certain, known, string library functions and just keeping your
mind on the possibility of an overflow occuring goes a long way towards
preventing them. There's no substitute for stress testing the hell out of
your routines, either.
> As for stupid compilers, how *could* it tell from a progammer's oversight
or
> a really neat trick?
Exactly.
------------------------------
From: "Paolo Ciambotti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux Advocacy
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 19:04:37 -0700
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Charlie Ebert"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
> COMMENT:
> We simply don't have a problem with uptime on our Microsoft Servers.
>
> RESPONSE:
> That explains why I never seem to hear phrases like, "THEY CAN'T GET IN"
> or "WE'RE DOWN AGAIN, WHAT'S GOING ON THIS TIME" which I hear every 3
> weeks since my date of employment. You loose a chunk of our system on
> average every month. And every time I suggest Linux you tell me we
> don't have an UPTIME problem.
I've seen this behaviour at two employers now, and I don't understand it.
The stock answer seems to be "well, it would have been stable except for
the downtime."
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: WinTrolls and advocates are the ones who are geeks!
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 14:02:49 +1200
> I am into soccer, running, reading, being with my family, and
> programming/configuring/operating Linux.
>
> Is that cool or what? But, ah, don't ask my wife... she
> thinks I spend to much time configuring my systems and
> network. <grin>
>
> Chris
>
> --
> Free the Software!
Linux, even though the community is small, it is very diverse.
Matthew Gardiner
------------------------------
From: "Paolo Ciambotti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: MS Must be getting really desperate
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 19:07:04 -0700
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Unknown"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There are others here that are capable of making me think a bit.
A painful experience, no doubt.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Subject: Re: Just how commercially viable is OSS?... (Was Re: Interesting MS speech
on OSS/GPL ( /. hates it so it's good))
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 02:07:36 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Peter K�hlmann
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote
on Mon, 7 May 2001 16:14:41 +0200
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>Jan Johanson wrote:
>>
>> "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> news:9d10qa$g7c$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>> > However, I agree on one
>>> > point, the Linux commercial distributors are struggling to make
>>> > profits.
>>>
>>>
>>> IBM might become a large Linux distributer. The distribution may not
>>> make a profit, but if the popularity of Linux increases, IBM benefit
>>> since their hardware runs Linux
>>
>> Then again, their benchmark record setting hardware runs Windows 2000
>> better.
>>
>>
>
>Yep, espacially the 390-thingy...
I suspect the "390-thingy" will eventually run Win XP.
Whether anyone will want to is an interesting question -- one
possibility for instance is to use a Bochs-style emulator.
Another is the Hardware Abstraction Layer. (Is that still around?)
It's not clear Linux runs natively, either -- as I understand
it, it runs under a virtual machine; IBM has been good at that
ever since VM/CMS days. Of course, MS has the V86 box for
some of its "thunks" and every Linux subprocess uses V86 as well. :-)
The difference is that MS and Linux take total control of the machinery
on a PC, in what might be called "supervisor" (Ring 0?) mode.
I don't know if that's the case with Linux on the S/390.
[.sigsnip]
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
EAC code #191 7d:00h:43m actually running Linux.
[select one]
Use the source, Luke.
No protons were harmed during this message.
[ ] Check here to always trust monopolistic software.
This is the best part of the message.
I'm here, you're there, and that's pretty much it.
Most advice is free. Sometimes, it's worth it.
This is the best part of the message.
This is a .sig.
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux,alt.linux,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows makes good coasters
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 01:52:19 GMT
"Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:btqJ6.10$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:5aoJ6.8767$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:YLmJ6.127$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > <snip>
> >
> > > > In any case, every Windoze user I've talked to that burns CDs tells
> > > > me about how often they've coastered a CD. I've never coastered one
> > > > under Linux, so I have no intention of wasting my time booting to
> > > > Windoze 2000 to burn CDs. Windoze, even of the NT/2000 ilk, has too
> > > > high a peak interrupt latency to be worth risking a $0.50 CD-R.
> > > > You never know when Windoze will pop in and garbage collect,
> > > > and not respond to the CD interrupt in time. Windoze latency is
> > > > like 10 msec typical even in the most advanced desktop versions.
> > > > Linux latency, on the other hand, is measured in microseconds.
> > >
> > > At 10x burning speed under Linux the fifo's utilization seldom drops
> below
> > > 98% regardless of the load (System in question is 768MB, 30 GB 7200 RPM
> > > UDMA, PIII 866). The same system running Windows will often drop as low
> as
> > > 58% with no other tasks running and will, about 40% of the time, produce
> a
> > > frisbee. However, I don't know if this is attributable to Adaptec's
> burning
> > > software (Not so good, IMHO), or to the OS (Equally not-so-good).
> >
> > This is BS.
>
> Nope, not at all. Both of my CD Burners exhibit the same behavior under
> Windows and the same increase in reliability under Linux, using cdrecord
> (fed image info directly from mkisofs)
Perhaps you don't have DMA set up properly in Windows, but I've never seen
anything this bad. Perhaps you're embelishing just a TAD
> >
> > I have a PII-400 with 256MB RAM and I can play Unreal Tournament while
> burning
> > a CD.
>
> THAT...is BS.
How so? Really, CD Burning isn't all that intensive. I have a TNT 2 Ultra
so UT doesn't really bang my CPU THAT hard. Sure, it's 100% CPU Util, but
it's not super intensive so Win2K can timeslice it pretty well.
I have a fairly recent burner, so it has a nice large on-board buffer
and I never have problems.
>
> > Except when I had a problem with my IDE channel, I've never seen EZ CD
> Creator's
> > buffer drop below 95% on any system I've used it on, including the old
> dual-
> > P200 I used to have. And I always am doing something while burning CDs.
> >
> > I usually take care not to do anything TOO intensive like compiling code
> or
> > copying the entire contents of a hard disk from one to another, and I've
> > never had a problem.
>
> My 166 box can dd an entire CD image, send another previously ripped cd
> image over to the PIII box via fast ethernet and burn a cd with my old 2x
> Phillips CDR drive simultaneously without a hiccup.(All of this controled
> via a dial-up PPP connection as I'm seldom at home anymore) Under Windows,
> I so much as try to access a floppy drive while burning and the thing goes
> haywire 40% of the time.
Hmm, maybe in your part of the world, but I have no such issue.
> >
> > Granted, EZ CD isn't a prize, but it's not that bad. And likewise, Windows
> > isn't either (Windows 2000 at least).
>
> EZ CD is pure, unadulterated garbage as is DirectCD.
I may give you that for DirectCD, but EZ CD is pretty good, IMHO. Perhaps you
just need to learn a little bit about Windows or something. But from what
you've described, it seems as though you've never used it and are just
making things up.
Wouldn't be the first time....
-c
------------------------------
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