Linux-Advocacy Digest #315, Volume #34 Tue, 8 May 01 06:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: Windos is *unfriendly* (Terry Porter)
Re: Cold feet or Reality Check? (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: Justice Department LOVES Microsoft! ("Edward Rosten")
NYC LOCAL: Tuesday 8 May 2001 Linux Society General Meeting: Ruth Shanen introduces
GNU/Linux ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Cold feet or Reality Check? ("Tom Wilson")
Re: Windows makes good coasters (Peter =?ISO-8859-1?Q?K=F6hlmann?=)
Re: Linux a Miserable Consumer OS (Donn Miller)
Re: Windows makes good coasters ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Linux a Miserable Consumer OS ("Tom Wilson")
Re: Justice Department LOVES Microsoft! ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Linux a Miserable Consumer OS ("Glitch")
Re: Why does Flatfoot feel so threatened? ("Glitch")
Re: Linux disgusts me ("Glitch")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: Windos is *unfriendly*
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 08 May 2001 08:09:45 GMT
On Mon, 7 May 2001 11:15:21 +0200,
Mikkel Elmholdt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Craig Kelley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
><snip>>
>> When was the last time a Linux advocate jumped into a MICROSOFT
>> ADVOCACY GROUP and derided Windows for being too difficult for the
>> "home" or "average" or "grandmother" user.
>
> No idea, but I would be somewhat surprised if it had not occurred at some
> point in time :-)
>
>> Windows users make the claim that Windows = Easy and Linux = Hard.
>> Terry is simply pointing out that this is not really true. What may
>> sound like hipocracy to you is entirely valid -- but only because
>> Windows users make the assertion.
>
> I did not accuse Terry of hypocracy, but more of presenting a bad case.
Hahah, this is unfortunately only too possible!
> My
> point was simply, that a guy that can spend two months unsuccessfully
> networking two Windows PCs will have a hard time getting anything PC-ish to
> work.
I disagree, I think that if he had used Linux, he would have simply
d/l the networking how-to and followed the simple steps outlined, testing
his system at all points, starting from his first box.
> I don't think that he would be more successful in networking two boxes
> running Linux (or any other OS for that matter), not because of any
> shortcomings in the OS but because of his own limited technical skills.
You could also be right, but even so, he uses Windows, he spent a few
months trying to network his Windows boxes.
Hence Windos *is* unfriendly. That was my original point.
Whether Linux is or isn't friendly is realy another topic.
>
> Mikkel
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.
1972 Kawa Mach3, 1974 Kawa Z1B, .. 15 more road bikes..
Current Ride ... a 94 Blade
Free Micro burner: http://jsno.downunder.net.au/terry/
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Cold feet or Reality Check?
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 20:12:08 +1200
Tom Wilson wrote:
>
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/cn/20010505/tc/microsoft_shelves_office_xp_subs
> cription_plan_1.html
>
> You be the judge...
Considering most of their sales would be made to overseas customers,
offering subscriptions services outside the US would be pointless as
many countries, such as New Zealand either have broadband, but it is
expensive, or does not have broardband at all, such as the outback of
Australia.
Matthew Gardiner
------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Justice Department LOVES Microsoft!
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 10:17:19 +0100
>> Well, UNIX printing is much more flexible than windows printing.
>
> See below, I don't think so.
See below...
>> > that is a problem all in itself. Second, we aren't talking about end
>> > users' problems here, we are talking about support for developers.
>> > Let's say that we take two comparable products that does the exact
>> > same thing, one for windows, the other for linux. The windows one
>> > could have printing support in a matter of no time, because GDI
>> > abstract the output device from the developer, so you don't have to
>> > change the code at all to print to a printer or display on the
>> > screen. The only worry you have is page breaks.
>>
>> You're making an absoloutely *HUGE* mistake here. You're making the
>> false assumption that all Linux applications use the GUI. Well, they
>> don't. So now look at it like this:
>>
>> You have 2 comparable commandline apps, one for windows and one for
>> Linux, and you want to print from them. How do you do it?
>>
>> Well, for the windows one you have to do the whole GDI thing, making
>> your program totally non protable.
>
> From the *command line*? WTF?
>
> FILE *fp = fopen("LPT1","wt"); if (!fp){
> printf("failure opening printer port"); return 1;
> }
> fprintf(fp,"Here I'm printing text using fprintf() on windows\n");
> fclose(fp);
The large mistake you're making here is the assumption that you would
only ever want to print text from the command prompt. This is incorrect.
Using fprintf's under Linux to print PS, you can print graphics from the
command prompt. Under Windows this won't work.
Also, some printers do not accept plain text.
How can you print device independent graphics in Windows without doing
the whole GDI thing to a command line program?
If you have a PS printer hooked up to LPT1 then you can, but this is a
special case.
> I might have gotten the file name wrong, it has been a long time since I
> did printing this way.
LPT1 refers to the first printer port, PRN to the default one. Windows
allows upto LPT9
> BTW, you have to go to *great* lengths to find a portable C/C++ program
> that is portable once you start using graphics, so it doesn't count.
Not true. If all the graphics are off-line (ie printed only) then you ca
write programs in standard C and standard PS and they will
anywhere that has a PS interpreter and a standards conformant C compiler.
Interactive graphics are a pain in the arese, portability wise, though,
but not all graphics are interactive.
>> For Linux, you do the whole PS thing using nothing but printfs. Linux
>> wind hands down here because the app is now totally protable (hell it
>> can be written in totally compliant C).
>
> See above, and it's fprintf, not printf.
You can use printfs, as ling as you | lpr or > PRN.
>> I actually write quite a lot of apps that do printing under Linux. none
>> of them use the GUI and they were all very easy to write.
>
> We are not talking about text printing here, you know. For text
> printing, you can just forward the input to the printer, and that is it.
> No hassle to the developer at all.
I was not referring to text printing. I went to the effort to learn basic
PostScript and not I can do graphics printing from all my command line
apps that I need to print from, with graphics. I have used this ability
quite a lot.
>> There is another problem in windows. Because the process is opaque,
>> there is no way of getting a device independent printer file. If you
>> print to a file under Windows, you get one for your printer. Under UNIX
>> you get PS, which you can then take to any other system and print
>> happily using the full capabilities of the device. This is a feature I
>> use a lot.
>
> Install a PS printer driver, print to file, done deal. And *I*, as the
> developer, don't need to know anything about PS to do it, too. It will
> create a perfectly legal PS file, too.
Yes, then take that device independent printer file to another windows
machine with the printer you want and try to print it. You can't without
installing 3rd party apps. There is no support for having a device
independent printer file under windows, without installing third party
apps on every machine you need to use.
>> > On Linux, however, you need to have seperate code that does it, which
>> > is much harder than adding few "if"s for page-breaks.
>>
>> Only for GUI apps.
>
> Since most (all?) printers can accept fprintf commands, then *of
> course*
most. Proably 99%
> we are talking about GUI apps. Or, at least, of printing non text stuff.
I was talking about non text stuff.
I still repeat my assertion that printing under UNIX is more flexible and
that it is much easier to print graphics from a command line app than
under Windows. I won't comment about GUI apps since I have little
experience with windows GUI work.
-Ed
--
You can't go wrong with psycho-rats.
u 9 8 e j r (at) e c s . o x . a c . u k
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc
Subject: NYC LOCAL: Tuesday 8 May 2001 Linux Society General Meeting: Ruth Shanen
introduces GNU/Linux
Date: 8 May 2001 04:21:03 -0400
<blockquote>
======================================================
http://www.thelinuxsociety.org
What: The Linux Society General Meeting
When: Tuesday, May 8, 2001 at 6:15 pm (sharp!) to 8:30 pm
Where: The NYPC Office
Room 1560, floor 15
The New Yorker Hotel,
481 Eighth Avenue (at 34th Street)
Manhattan, New York City
Speaker: Ruth Shanen (The Linux Society)
Topic: Introduction to Linux
======================================================
In an anniversary session of The Linux Society,
one of its Founding -- I all but said Fathers! --
Ruth Shanen will introduce the basic concepts
of the operating system that we have all gathered
around. Everybody is welcome!
==================================
The Linux Society (TM)
http://www.thelinuxsociety.org
is a SIG of NYPC (http://www.nypc.org)
meeting monthly in mid-town Manhattan.
We hold a General Meeting each month on a topic of
interest to new or experienced LINUX users.
We also have a Linux Study Group in progress,
meeting two evenings each month
All our meetings are free and open to all.
For more information please check our web site
or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
========================================================
Stefan Mashkevich
Public Relations, The Linux Society
</blockquote>
Distributed poC TINC:
Jay Sulzberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Corresponding Secretary LXNY
LXNY is New York's Free Computing Organization.
http://www.lxny.org
------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Cold feet or Reality Check?
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 08:24:10 GMT
"Matthew Gardiner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Tom Wilson wrote:
> >
> >
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/cn/20010505/tc/microsoft_shelves_office_xp_subs
> > cription_plan_1.html
> >
> > You be the judge...
> Considering most of their sales would be made to overseas customers,
> offering subscriptions services outside the US would be pointless as
> many countries, such as New Zealand either have broadband, but it is
> expensive, or does not have broardband at all, such as the outback of
> Australia.
None of their recent decisions have made a bit of sense. They must have
contracted their marketing department from a temp service or something.
Touting a "feature" that most clearly don't want - Feeling the, one would
think, obvious heat and withdrawing said "feature" for a select few but
keeping it enabled for their
customers who, in many cases, don't have the infrastructure to support
it.......And intimating that all of this is just temporary.
What kind of brain dead marketing scheme IS this?
------------------------------
From: Peter =?ISO-8859-1?Q?K=F6hlmann?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux,alt.linux,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows makes good coasters
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 09:26:35 +0200
Chad Myers wrote:
>
> Yes, Win9x suck for everything. I couldn't imagine trying to do
> anything like CD burning in Win9x, let alone try to get any decent
> amount of work done.
>
> Win9x just suck.
>
When OS/2 Warp3 came (shortly before Win95) all MS-jerks were saying
that Warp is crap compared to Win95.
It was not true.
Then came NT4. It should be much better than Win95 and naturally be
better than OS/2.
It was (you guessed it) not true.
Win98 should be better than Win95.
It was not true.
WinME should be better than Win98.
It is plainly not true.
I bought Windows/386.
I bought Windows 3.0
I bought Windows 3.11
I bought Windows95
I bought Windows98
I bought Windows NT4
Each time it should be the best OS there is
It was not true - each time
> This is a common problem. I find many MS bashers like to bash
> MS and all Windows because of the poor experience they've had with
> Win9x.
>
> They seem to feel that Win2K is the same thing somehow. They've
> obviously never used it and so they can't talk about it.
>
> You really should try Win2K. Microsoft got it right this time.
>
Do you really think I will *ever* again be suckered by Microsoft?
They can go to hell.
I�ve had it for all the future to come. I don�t believe this crap that
they "really got it right this time" no longer.
Peter
--
The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably
the day they start making vacuum cleaners" - Ernst Jan Plugge
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 05:12:05 -0400
From: Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux a Miserable Consumer OS
Edward Rosten wrote:
> It's farly well agreed on that birds are not a bridge between mammles and
> reptiles.
I think centipedes are the original primates, because they split off
into various animal and insect groups. Correct? I'll bet you could
trace all animal and insect species back to the centipede.
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------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux,alt.linux,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows makes good coasters
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:17:49 +0200
"Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:IVMJ6.9$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Steve Sheldon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:9d7u27$t3i$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > I'll grant you that 2K appears to handle heavy utilization much better
> > than
> > > NT4 did. That's one of the first things I noticed while using it.
> >
> > I highly doubt you know what heavy utilization is.
>
> Depends on the platform in question. Generating mpeg video in the
background
> while running WinAmp and compiling a large project at the same time under
> Windows certainly qualifies as heavy utilization. Frankly, I was surprised
> 2K didn't puke. As I mentioned before, I switched back to NT4 because of
the
> need for a few older utilities that won't run under it. No desire to
upgrade
> them right now. NT4 is "adequate" as a platform for VS6.
Add more big IO operations, couple of servers, and then you get to what is
called heavy utilization.
I never had 2K puke at me from overload, btw, only from bad drivers.
What are those utilities that you can't run on 2K?
I'm nearly certain that there are 2K replacements for them, or that they
would work on 2K as well.
I went to 2000 because it has all the benefits of 9x combined with non of
the minuses.
------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux a Miserable Consumer OS
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 09:21:10 GMT
"Donn Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Edward Rosten wrote:
>
> > It's farly well agreed on that birds are not a bridge between mammles
and
> > reptiles.
>
> I think centipedes are the original primates, because they split off
> into various animal and insect groups. Correct? I'll bet you could
> trace all animal and insect species back to the centipede.
Ok... I'll bite...Sounds fun...
Give me the theory.
PS: Personally, I think an amphibian of some sort is responsible for this
mess.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Justice Department LOVES Microsoft!
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:31:03 +0200
"Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9d8a1o$cjg$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> Well, UNIX printing is much more flexible than windows printing.
> >
> > See below, I don't think so.
>
> See below...
>
> >> > that is a problem all in itself. Second, we aren't talking about end
> >> > users' problems here, we are talking about support for developers.
> >> > Let's say that we take two comparable products that does the exact
> >> > same thing, one for windows, the other for linux. The windows one
> >> > could have printing support in a matter of no time, because GDI
> >> > abstract the output device from the developer, so you don't have to
> >> > change the code at all to print to a printer or display on the
> >> > screen. The only worry you have is page breaks.
> >>
> >> You're making an absoloutely *HUGE* mistake here. You're making the
> >> false assumption that all Linux applications use the GUI. Well, they
> >> don't. So now look at it like this:
> >>
> >> You have 2 comparable commandline apps, one for windows and one for
> >> Linux, and you want to print from them. How do you do it?
> >>
> >> Well, for the windows one you have to do the whole GDI thing, making
> >> your program totally non protable.
> >
> > From the *command line*? WTF?
> >
> > FILE *fp = fopen("LPT1","wt"); if (!fp){
> > printf("failure opening printer port"); return 1;
> > }
> > fprintf(fp,"Here I'm printing text using fprintf() on windows\n");
> > fclose(fp);
>
> The large mistake you're making here is the assumption that you would
> only ever want to print text from the command prompt. This is incorrect.
Okay, good point.
> Using fprintf's under Linux to print PS, you can print graphics from the
> command prompt. Under Windows this won't work.
*fprintf* ? How the hell does *this* work?
fprintf takes a character array, and print it to a file, how do you take a
char array and make it into a graphic picture?
> Also, some printers do not accept plain text.
Few, as you mentioned.
> How can you print device independent graphics in Windows without doing
> the whole GDI thing to a command line program?
Same as you would do with Linux, output PS, activate GS to translate to
device dependent output.
In this case, it would be to the GDI, which would translate it to device
dependent output.
> If you have a PS printer hooked up to LPT1 then you can, but this is a
> special case.
Then translate it like you do in Linux.
> > I might have gotten the file name wrong, it has been a long time since I
> > did printing this way.
>
> LPT1 refers to the first printer port, PRN to the default one. Windows
> allows upto LPT9
Yeah, like I said, it has been a *long* time since I dealt with DOS
printing, and printing code in general isn't a topic I like very much.
> > BTW, you have to go to *great* lengths to find a portable C/C++ program
> > that is portable once you start using graphics, so it doesn't count.
>
> Not true. If all the graphics are off-line (ie printed only) then you ca
> write programs in standard C and standard PS and they will
> anywhere that has a PS interpreter and a standards conformant C compiler.
Okay, not exactly what I call *using* graphics, but true.
BTW, it isn't just PS, you could say the same about JPEG, frex. (not as
good, of course, for the purpose we are talking about)
> Interactive graphics are a pain in the arese, portability wise, though,
> but not all graphics are interactive.
Agreed, full heartedly.
> >> For Linux, you do the whole PS thing using nothing but printfs. Linux
> >> wind hands down here because the app is now totally protable (hell it
> >> can be written in totally compliant C).
> >
> > See above, and it's fprintf, not printf.
>
> You can use printfs, as ling as you | lpr or > PRN.
No, printf print to STDIN, what you meant is that you can take program's
output and redirect it to the printer, that is not a developer's worry,
usually.
> >> I actually write quite a lot of apps that do printing under Linux. none
> >> of them use the GUI and they were all very easy to write.
> >
> > We are not talking about text printing here, you know. For text
> > printing, you can just forward the input to the printer, and that is it.
> > No hassle to the developer at all.
>
> I was not referring to text printing. I went to the effort to learn basic
> PostScript and not I can do graphics printing from all my command line
> apps that I need to print from, with graphics. I have used this ability
> quite a lot.
Point taken, personally, I learned ASCII art :)
> >> There is another problem in windows. Because the process is opaque,
> >> there is no way of getting a device independent printer file. If you
> >> print to a file under Windows, you get one for your printer. Under UNIX
> >> you get PS, which you can then take to any other system and print
> >> happily using the full capabilities of the device. This is a feature I
> >> use a lot.
> >
> > Install a PS printer driver, print to file, done deal. And *I*, as the
> > developer, don't need to know anything about PS to do it, too. It will
> > create a perfectly legal PS file, too.
>
> Yes, then take that device independent printer file to another windows
> machine with the printer you want and try to print it. You can't without
> installing 3rd party apps. There is no support for having a device
> independent printer file under windows, without installing third party
> apps on every machine you need to use.
Since Linux does it with 3rd part tools (can you do the same without GS?) I
would say it's not fair.
Given postscript driver & GS, I can do the same on windows.
And that would work on *any* application that print on windows.
> >> > On Linux, however, you need to have seperate code that does it, which
> >> > is much harder than adding few "if"s for page-breaks.
> >>
> >> Only for GUI apps.
> >
> > Since most (all?) printers can accept fprintf commands, then *of
> > course*
> most. Proably 99%
Large enough precentage so we can ignore the bitmap only printers.
> > we are talking about GUI apps. Or, at least, of printing non text stuff.
>
> I was talking about non text stuff.
Okay.
> I still repeat my assertion that printing under UNIX is more flexible and
> that it is much easier to print graphics from a command line app than
> under Windows. I won't comment about GUI apps since I have little
> experience with windows GUI work.
I think that you are wrong, because it's just as easy to print from the CLI
on windows as it's on Linux, if you are going to output PS. And easier if
you are bypassing PS and going straight to GDI.
You could probably write a wrapper functions that would output PS or GDI,
according to where you are compiling/running this application, without too
much trouble.
------------------------------
From: "Glitch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux a Miserable Consumer OS
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 02:35:26 -0400
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Aaron Ginn"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>
>> > Actually, from my understanding, birds are closer to reptiles.
>>
>> Except for the warm-blooded part. They seem to me to be a sort of
>> in-between or bridge species. Kind of the logical direction for
>> dinosaurs to move in (had they not of course been wiped out so quickly)
>> just for the efficiency reasons and also for the fact that atmospheric
>> oxygen levels were declining (as some have illustrated). For some
>> reason, I've always considered them, species-wise, to be more
>> mammillian than reptilian. I can't quite put my finger on why, though.
>
> Birds don't produce milk for their young like mammals. This is am huge
> evolutionary step for a single bridge species to make. It allows the
evolutionary? It amazes me how many people have fallen for the lie of
mutations being the cause for the existence of all the species of animals
living today(not to mention how "lucky" we are that a star exploded that
gave rise to a planet with a perfect enough enviornment to support life
Talk about order in chaos; far fetched bed time stories more like it).
It amazes me how scientists can be stupid enough to say
that a single bolt of lightning (1.21 gigawatts for those BttF fans)
caused amino acids to go haywire and make something out of nothing (a
single celled organism) which led to the evolvement (their words,not
mine) of the human species.
I resent the fact that I, as a member of the human race, came from an ape
and that birds used to be dinosaurs with feathers. Did they just keep
waiting for 'evolution' to give them hollow enough bones to be able to
fly? hogwash
> parents to not have to leave their young unattended to go out in search
> for food. I have to agree that birds definately appear to be more
> closely releated to reptiles than mammals although I'm no evolutionary
> biologist, so this is mere speculation on my part.
>
birds are warm blooded, reptiles are cold blooded if im not mistaken; big
difference
------------------------------
From: "Glitch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why does Flatfoot feel so threatened?
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 03:02:17 -0400
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Unknown"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, 06 May 2001 16:21:39 -0000, Ray Chason
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>You mean superior results such as:
>>
>> 1) Not popping up the Blue Screen of Death at the drop of a hat?
>
> I don't have any problems.
>
>> 2) Not grinding to a halt because you clicked "recalculate" on
>> a large spreadsheet?
>
Today in a lab at school I tried to access a floppy using My Computer. I
got no response and eventually a BSOD, which I never read b/c I knew it
meant I couldn't do the simple job I stupidly thought I could accomplish
using Windows. I moved on to another computer and got it to work.
>
> No. Having a spreadsheet program that is 100 percent compatible with
> what the rest of the earth is using.
>>
do you think the old Excel spreadsheets you have (say from excel 95 or whatever was
before 97) will work with Office XP's Excel? No? So much for that
compatiblity thing you mentioned
------------------------------
From: "Glitch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux disgusts me
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 03:05:18 -0400
>>
>>Matthew Gardiner
>
>
> When and if, Linux becomes the standard OS (a pipe dream at best), I
> will use it.
>
> Chances are I will be long gone from this earth when that happens
> though.
>
> Flatfish
so how long have you been dead and came back reincarnated? (not that i believe in it)
------------------------------
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