Linux-Advocacy Digest #614, Volume #34 Fri, 18 May 01 23:13:02 EDT
Contents:
Re: To Erik: What is Wordperfect missing? (Terry Porter)
Re: Linux Mandrake Sucks!!!! (Michael Vester)
Re: Why Linux Is no threat to Windows domination of the desktop (Matt Kennel)
Re: Dell Meets Estimates ("2 + 2")
Re: To Erik: What is Wordperfect missing? (Terry Porter)
Re: Why Linux Is no threat to Windows domination of the desktop ("Rich Soyack")
Re: Solaris 8 vs 7/2.x.... ("C. Newport")
Re: The truth about shared-source ("Paolo Ciambotti")
Re: Dell Meets Estimates ("2 + 2")
Re: Justice Department LOVES Microsoft! (Rick)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: To Erik: What is Wordperfect missing?
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 19 May 2001 02:06:49 GMT
On Fri, 18 May 2001 20:55:14 GMT,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "Terry Porter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>> What part of Comp Linux Advocacy, don't you understand ?
>
> Why > 80% of it has nothing to do with advocacy.
Thats true, but then you and Flatty are to blame for that.
>> > (why the hell would *you* use access anyway? isn't it another worthless,
>> > evil product from the Borg?)
>>
>> This is a common misconception by Wintrolls like you. Most Linux advocates
>> have used many MS apps, for many years. We know the problems that these Ms
>> apps exhibit, because of our *experience*.
>
> Most LinPerts still use them because of the need
Correct.
> to or because they lie
> about using the bloated also-rans such as StarOffice.
I don't think so UberFabricator.
> You more than likely used them long enough to figure out that you'd never
> realize anywhere near 1/2 of the feature set and gave up on it.
^^^^^^^ need
> That, or
> these apps are just too common for your fragile ego,
My ego isn't fragile, you should know that by now.
Hasn't it occured to you yet UberFudder, that I actually *enjoy* 'debating'
with Wintrolls ?
> in that millions of
> folks do manage to become extremely productive with them.
Hahahah SO *you* claim.
> Better to be a big fish in the small pond when personal issues preclude you
> from dealing with all the other fish in the big pond.
The Justice Department, had nothing to say about 'personal issues'. The reason
Windows is so prevalent is directly due to illegal trade practices.
>
>> You on the other hand, puff and blow all day long about your wonderfull
>> MS OS, and XP is coming to screw you, yet you still have no clue.
>
> I don't huff and blow,
Yes you do.
> and I don't use MS and wonderful in the same
> sentence.
Nor does any one else. Except Ms bankers of course.
> I only call attention to the copious amounts of BS perpetrated by LinPerts.
Really ???
Gee a OS bs SUPERHERO ?
>
>> > In any event, all you're doing is pasting an image (static) of the data
> into
>> > the document.
>>
>> Well DOH!
>>
>> > You update the data in the source, the data in the document stays the
> same.
>>
>> Thank you for your elementary cut n paste lesson.
>
> You're welcome.
It was unsolicited, I learnt how to cut and paste along time ago.
>
>> > If you embed the same, the link is "live". Changes to the source are
>> > reflected in the document in which you "embedded" a live copy.
>>
>> And you're happy to do this on a WP (Word) that has enough trouble
> handling
>> a document over 200 pages as it is ?
>
> I don't run across too many word processing documents over 200 pages.
You wont if you use Word.
> But I suppose you're about to tell us that no author uses word?
Wrong.
I had a visit from a degreed philosopher about a year ago, who uses it.
He wantedtoknow how he could get of the Word bandwaggon, as it was
loosing his precious *.doc's and costing him a fortune.
I showed him how a word.doc can be stripped of the extra copies
of the *same* doc and the binary junk within the file by using :-
$strings word.doc >word.txt
Then I showed him how the *.txt file can be inserted into Lyx, and
with a little manual formatting (headers etc) the doc looked so
similar to his Word.doc that it wasnt worth worrying about.
Of course I could have gone further, and shown him how to use CVS
to keep track of his revisions, but he was a Ms Word user,and I didn't
want to confuse him. He was still learning the correct use of'clippy'.
>
>> I can only conclude that Ubertroll specialises is *short* documents.
>
> I don't use word unless the document requires it.
I don't use Word at all.
> I use plain text for 90%
> or more of what I write.
As do I. Or RTF as its a *standard*, if required.
> I won't hazard to guess what *short* appendage is
> your speciality.
Good try at emotive slings, but no cigar.
>
>> Perhaps a list to take to the shop for lunch?
>
> What a ... never mind.
UberCat got your tongue ?
>
>> > D'oh.
>> >
>> > Another LinPert telling us how *everything* else in the world works.
>>
>> At least they have a clue, unlike you, troll boy.
>
> Troll boy. That's cute.
Yeah I thought so too, but does it fit ?? ... I think so.
Even the color matches :)
> Best you can do?
Dunno ... probably ?
> I don't think so,
I can only try.
> as I've seen it
> more times than your name in the list of LinPerts cum LinZealots that post
> here.
Then you've seen it alot :)
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.
1972 Kawa Mach3, 1974 Kawa Z1B, .. 15 more road bikes..
Current Ride ... a 94 Blade
Free Micro burner: http://jsno.downunder.net.au/terry/
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
From: Michael Vester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux Mandrake Sucks!!!!
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:47:50 -0700
Paolo Ciambotti wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Michael Vester"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > wendy wrote:
> [a buncha crap]
> >> wendy
> >
> > A new handle for our cute and loveable Flatfish?
> >
> >
> Spot on, mate. Could be no other. The limited vocabulary and consistent
> grammatical cockups makes it pretty easy to pick the poser out from the
> rest of the noise. Expect the vehement denial shortly, same format as all
> the other vehement denials for the last thirty-five aliases.
It was this quote that clued me in
"I lugged the entire system to CompUSA where I bought it and they got
it back for me thank goodness without any data loss."
That is definitely a "FlatFishism." They must think she/he/it is a real
nut case after marking Linux boxes with yellow tape last year to see how
fast the stock moved. I like the name Flatfish. Hope she/he/it keeps it.
Hear that Flatfish, you have a fan.
--
Michael Vester
A credible Linux advocate
"The avalanche has started, it is
too late for the pebbles to vote"
Kosh, Vorlon Ambassador to Babylon 5
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matt Kennel)
Crossposted-To: soc.men,soc.singles,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Why Linux Is no threat to Windows domination of the desktop
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 02:23:17 +0000 (UTC)
Reply-To: mbkennel@<REMOVE THE BAD DOMAIN>yahoo.spam-B-gone.com
On Fri, 18 May 2001 23:40:40 GMT, Ray Fischer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:Rich Soyack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:>Why is the vaginal transmission rate so low in this country, Ray?
:
:It's no lower than anywhere else. It's just that in this country the
:disease got started in the population of homosexual men. In the rest
:of the world it's very much a heterosexual disease.
Well, in Africa and in some parts of Asia.
There is also a biological difference between the prevalent strains there
and here.
It may be significant to the mode of transmission and it may not be, but
I sure as hell wouldn't to take the chance.
:Ray Fischer When you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks
:[EMAIL PROTECTED] into you -- Nietzsche
--
* Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD
*
* "To chill, or to pop a cap in my dome, whoomp! there it is."
* Hamlet, Fresh Prince of Denmark.
------------------------------
From: "2 + 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: Dell Meets Estimates
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 22:25:59 -0400
That's just a Sun press release.
The fact is that both Windows 2000 and Linux have taken tremendous server
market share from Unix.
Why? They both give much greater value.
I just love products have give great value to business and other consumers.
:)
Of course, I also appreciate the high end market dominated legitimately by
IBM for those who want to pay.
As opposed to HYPE, which is what Sun and Oracle specialize in.
I love companies (or movements) that invest billions and come up with
fabulous products for consumers like the Linux (OS) or Apache (web server)
or Application Center Server (clustering) or Win 2000 MTS (transaction
processing).
These are so advantageous for the economy. They are the real thing.
Then there's the Java HYPE. What a difference!
If EJB or JavaBeans (with all the benfits of components with drop in
deployment) had some compelling product (and not just web bubble jobs for
programmers/consultants), then I would be singing its praises (or even the
language with a mass market app).
But I digress.
And Dell has been the OEM to captitalize.
And you clipped your own comment:
>I don't think any business dares to put an Wintel box in operation
>if it processes any reasonable amount of data...
Of course, any "reasonable amount of data."
IBM's DB2 runs on both Linux and Windows 2000 and can handle "reasonable"
amounts of data.
2 + 2
Shun Yan Cheung wrote in message <9e4iik$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>In article <9e47bf$3s6$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 2 + 2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>>
>>I offer the following benchmarks for Win2000 running SQL Server.
>
>I didn't see any "benchmarks"...
>
>>I want to see you offer some benchmarks:
>
>Benchmarks are numbers like:
>
> "The table below compares the Sun Fire 6800 server per-CPU performance
> to the HP 9000 Superdome, NCR WorldMark 5250 and IBM RS/6000 SP 550:
>
> System CPUs QphH@1000GB/CPU Sun Fire 6800 server
> Percent Advantage
> (Performance
per-CPU)
>
> Sun Fire 6800 24 188.7 --
> HP 9000 Superdome 64 152.4 24%
> NCR WorldMark 5250 128 144.9 30%
> IBM RS/6000 SP 550 128 100.5 88%
>
>That sniplet was from "Sun Server First Midrange System to Run 1000GB
>TPC-H Data Warehouse Benchmark". Full details in:
>
> http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010514/sfm124.html
>
>
>--
>``Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly''
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Terry Porter)
Subject: Re: To Erik: What is Wordperfect missing?
Reply-To: No-Spam
Date: 19 May 2001 02:20:45 GMT
On Fri, 18 May 2001 21:05:03 GMT,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "Terry Porter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>> >> Just imported a Access table into Pardox without any problems. Quattro
>> >> Pro is handling MS Excel with any formatting issues, and Wordperfect is
>> >> as stable as the pope. Please, yet again I stress, where are the
>> >> so-called features that MS Office has that Wordperfect hasn't.
>> >
>> > Not to get into a pissing match over features here,
>>
>> You're not succeeding are you ?
>
> I don't do pissing matches.
Yes you do.
>
>> > but uh, it's obvious
>> > that your spreadsheet doesn't have anything in the beyond standard
> formulas.
>>
>> Oh I dunno.
>> His spreadsheet has remote GUI, stability and is probably free.
>
> You get what you pay for.
Not always. Take Windos for instance, the price is high, very high
indeed for a single user, non remote GUI platform.
>
>> > It couldn't have:
>> > VBA macros
>> > OLE
>> > Excel Pivot tables
>> > Complex 'what if' scenarios
>> > I could go on and on ..
>>
>> Allow me :)
>> It also couldn't have BSOD's, XP, the BSA, and it cost you a bundle
>> unless like many Windows users, you *stole* it.
>
> It always amazes me the number of BSOD's you LinPerts have when I've had
> less than 6 or 7 in years --all due to hardware problems.
I've only had a couple myself,but that was 2 more than I *should* have had.
It always amazes me how you Winzealots **accept** BSOD's as tho they are a part
of daily life, which I suppose for a Windows user, they are ?
> I didn't steal
> Office 97, I bought it, and it's registered.
Good boy, are you happy with your $500 investment?
What about the fact that it wont run under XP?
> I beta test XP, so I won't spend a dime for it. Whether I'll actually use it
> depends on many factors, but the fact remains that I'll have a perfectly
> legal copy when and if I decide to do so.
A perfectly legal copy of Office for XP ?
>
>> > The point is, that, if it is a standard "works for dummies" spreadsheet
>> > (which I'm thinking it is), then no problem. If it's something used in a
>> > professional capacity, such as a Real Estate business that puts
> everything
>> > into Excel workbooks,
>>
>> I'd have thought that theyd want something more reliable ?
>> Perhaps its ok for those Real Estate firms with less than 20 clients.
>
> If you'd worked in the windows world, as you soooo like to claim,
I did, as a network engineer from about 1989 till 1992.
> you would
> have without a doubt run into a business looking to convert huge
> spreadsheets to either RDMS or custom solutions with C\S solution.
I personally didn't, but in those days, Windows was relegated to
short memos, email and Solitare, or a term emulator toconnect to the
*mainframe* for huge database tasks.
> This is
> very common, and a very frequent form of income for windows programmers with
> database experience.
I'm happy to take your word for it.
>
>> > then forget it. You're not doing your Advocacy any
>> > favors
>>
>> Don't advise anyone about Linux Advocacy Ubertroll, you're only
>> qualified to rant about Windos advocacy.
>
> That's just it LinPert, I don't advocate windows at all.
Coulda fooled me, but then I've seen you in action since your
whining newbiedays on COLA.
> I only point out
> the rampant BS people here will perpetuate in order to do God knows what in
> the name of "advocacy"
See above re 'Superhero'
>> > by perpetuating this sort of blatant BS.
>>
>> You're the bs expert Ubertroll.
>
> To use one of yours ... pot, kettle ...
Thank you that will be $1, (copyright infringment fee).
>
>> > Just tell it like it is:
>>
>> Hahahha, why..... ?
>> You don't have the aptitude to follow.
>
> I don't do battles of wits with the unarmed.
Hahahahah, hey thats the first time you have
**EVER** made me laugh. Take a bow.
>
>> > Corel for Linux will handle the importing of MS office files if said
> files
>> > don't include any of the more advanced features of that software.
>>
>> Or any of its unreliability.
>
> Corel is no more or less stable than Office.
>
>> > Your
>> > manure is getting thick,
>>
>> Mr black Uberkettle.
>>
>> > as is your lack of knowledge on concepts such as
>> > OLE.
>>
>> He demonstrated no lack of knowledge of OLE, you're the one
>> making these claims.
>>
>> We are still waiting for someone to explain the so-called
>> features that MS Office has that Wordperfect hasn't.
>>
>> You may consider OLE to be a feature, is that your point ?
>
> I thought so at one time.
So Ubertroll considers OLE to be a feature!
> The point is, that, the originator of this post
> was talking through his hat, got called on it,
Only by you.
> and resorted to the usual
> LinPert retort
No he didnt, he tried to explain to a Wintroll what he meant.
> --Attack dog tactics that only prove what everyone already
> knows about COLA.
That was me, I know you for what you are. And it wasnt an attack
it was a reply.
Now go back to your home on Alt.Linux.Sucks, Troll Boy.
>
>
>
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux.
1972 Kawa Mach3, 1974 Kawa Z1B, .. 15 more road bikes..
Current Ride ... a 94 Blade
Free Micro burner: http://jsno.downunder.net.au/terry/
** Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
------------------------------
From: "Rich Soyack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: soc.men,soc.singles,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Why Linux Is no threat to Windows domination of the desktop
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 02:28:21 GMT
"Ray Fischer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9e4ja8$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Rich Soyack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >"jet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>
> >> > >> http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/faq/faq21.htm
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Can I get HIV from having vaginal sex?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Yes, it is possible to become infected with HIV through
vaginal
> >> > >> intercourse. In fact, it is the most common way the virus is
> >> > >> transmitted in much of the world. HIV can be found in the
blood,
> >> > >> semen, pre-seminal fluid, or vaginal fluid of a person
infected
> >> > >> with the virus. The lining of the vagina can tear and possibly
> >> > >> allow HIV to enter the body. Direct absorption of HIV through
> >> > >> the mucous membranes that line the vagina also is a
possibility.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> The male may be at less risk for HIV transmission than the
female
> >> > >> through vaginal intercourse. However, HIV can enter the body
of
> >the
> >> > >> male through his urethra (the opening at the tip of the penis)
or
> >> > >> through small cuts or open sores on the penis.
> >> > >
> >> > >What was left out of this statement was the fact the there would
have
> >to
> >> > >be vaginal lessions for the AIDS virsus to be effectively
transmitted
> >to
> >> the
> >> > >male in vaginal intercourse.
> >> >
> >> > Indeed? So you too know better than the US CDC and all of those
> >> > medical researchers? A woman needs a vaginal lesion in order
> >> > to lubricate. Another thing I never knew.
> >>
> >> LOL. Perfect.
> >
> >Well, if you read what you posted, Ray,
>
> That was jet.
I know, I ignored her "noncomment" and addressed you.
>
> > Ray, it says "The lining of the vagina
> >can tear..."
>
> It's amazing how many times you fools can completely ignore what's
> written. Is it because you cannot deal with the truth or is it a
> general problem with reading comprehension?
Why the need for the snip, Ray?
>
> Here, read this:
>
> HIV can be found in the blood, semen, pre-seminal fluid,
> or vaginal fluid of a person infected with the virus.
>
> > If that is the usage then they are
> >referring to a
> >tear or lesion, since a tear is indeed a lesion.
>
> It is. Why are you focussing on an irrelevant detail?
>
> HIV can be found in the blood, semen, pre-seminal fluid,
> or vaginal fluid of a person infected with the virus.
Gee, Ray, can't admit you are wrong, can you. As it was explained to
me a lesion is what is necessary for the transmission of the virus. The
transmission of the virus through an intact vagina is a vanishingly small
possibility. What you have to do is look at the probabilities of the
virus being found in vaginal fluid.
Rich Soyack
------------------------------
From: "C. Newport" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.solaris.x86,comp.unix.solaris,staroffice.com.support.install.solaris,comp.unix.advocacy,alt.os.unix,alt.unix
Subject: Re: Solaris 8 vs 7/2.x....
Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 03:30:47 +0100
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Philip Brown wrote:
>
> It's stupid to pay $50,000-$100,000 for a server, plus $15,000-$25,000 for
> useless "lite" desktops, to support 25 developers,
> when you could pay $50,000 for desktops, plus $10,000 on a small server,
> to support 50 developers.
Only if your projects are trivial enough to compile quickly
on a $1000 desktop.
It is not economical to have expensive developers sit around
watching paint dry for several hours every time they do a build.
--
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm
not sure about the universe. [Albert Einstein].
------------------------------
From: "Paolo Ciambotti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The truth about shared-source
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:55:56 -0700
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Dave Martel"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just passing on an interesting URL:
>
> <http://shared-source.com/>
>
> Looks like a site set up to refute Microsoft's anti-GPL FUD, also has a
> point-by-point comparison of shared source and open source.
>
>
The site was put up by Bernhard Rosenkraenzer, and if you've ever delved
into the KDE source tree, you'll certainly have come across his name as
one of the maintainers. It's an excellent site that very effectively
debunks and demystifies all of Craig Mundie's recent arguments against
open source. I think the Reg (http://www.theregister.co.uk) referred to
it as "the domain that Microsoft wished they'd registered."
------------------------------
From: "2 + 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: Dell Meets Estimates
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:02:28 -0400
Xrayjuan wrote in message ...
>Wow! what a technical explanation " Linux rocks " : - 0
Heh heh.
The reality is that in the server space literally tens and even hundeds of
thousands of very smart business IT people make the decisions. And my point
was about the the market up through the mid-level. Success in one sector
does not guarantee success in another.
So gaining market share is enough "technical."
For instance, the pre-NT4 was completely rejected by the market. So be it.
But NT4 was a great success, partly because it had a GUI. The market wanted
that.
2 + 2
>"2 + 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:9e47rb$6n5$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>
>> Shun Yan Cheung wrote in message <9e45ri$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>> >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ca <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >>Don't count on it. Most Fortune 500 companies wouldn't touch Linux for
>> >>anything mission critical....
>> >
>> >I find this a bit odd, since Linux is very stable and
>> >its speed is getting pretty respectable.
>>
>> The "mission critical" canard is balony.
>>
>> IBM, which supports everything the customer wants, is spending a cool
>> billion on Linux.
>>
>> Linux rocks!
>>
>> Of course, my comment was about Dell and the mid-server market.
>>
>> 2 + 2
>>
>>
>> >Perhaps the lack
>> >of support is a factor. Another Linux weakness is hacker-
>> >vulnerability. Linux systems get hacked very frequently and
>> >it's a sys. adm. nightmare to keep up with the patch work...
>> >Perhaps the latter is more of a reason not to use Linux in mission
>> >critical tasks ?
>> >--
>> >``Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly''
>>
>>
>
>
------------------------------
From: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Justice Department LOVES Microsoft!
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 23:08:59 -0400
Daniel Johnson wrote:
>
> "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Daniel Johnson wrote:
> > > > You totally disregard direct quotes.
> > >
> > > Only sometimes!
> >
> > Bullshit. Eveytime it conflicts with your view.
>
> No, no, sometimes I make excuses. :D
>
passive agressive.
> [snip- "They stole the market place"- it's tired already]
> > > No way. If this were true all the developers would have switched
> > > to Windows once it was dominant- and they didn't.
> >
> > Statistically they have.
>
> It's the timing of the thing. Different groups of
> developers switch at different times; they
> switch when Winodws begins to offer
> real advantages for whatever-it-is they
> happen to do.
>
> [snip]
> > > > becasue window$ is the dominant OS. Its what "everyone else" has. And
> m$
> > > > stole the marketplace.
> > >
> > > You've not given any reason for *anyone* to care
> > > about that, per se.
> >
> > care about which part. The market place thievery?
>
> No, I mean the reason why anyone cares that
> Windows is the dominant OS. Anyone but OS
> connoseurs, anyway.
>
Are you really that clueless.
> You say users choose windows because "everyone
> is using it"; but why do they care?
>
So they can share apps, data, etc. ???
> Is it a fashion statement?
>
> [snip]
> > > > Thats crap. When the PC came out it was unfavorably compared with
> > > > Tandy's CP/M machines... but since no one was ever fired for buying
> > > > IBM... and the PC was running M$-DO$...
> > >
> > > None of the machines you mentioned are CP/M machines.
> >
> > So what? Tandy's Model (whatever) machines were CP/M based, and they
> > were found to be better than IBM's PC in several reviews. I guess you
> > think I should now spend several hours searching for reviews because you
> > are too lazy to actually search for something that might conflict with
> > your view.
>
> I'd like to see those reviews. If this is the original 8 bit
> CP/M on an 8080 or Z80 we are talking about, I
> wonder what they found to like about it.
>
Search for them, now that your interest is piqued. IIRC, it was more the
hardware. Im not sure why.
> I suspect it wasn't anything to do with the OS;
> CP/M and MS-DOS are like twins separated
> at birth.
>
> > > The PC was better than any CP/M machine; MS-DOS
> > > was very close to CP/M but a little more user
> > > friendly (you know COPY instead of PIP, that
> > > sort of thing). It could take more memory and
> > > had a 16-bit ALU.
> >
> > Yeah. m$-DO$ was very close to CP/M. Thats why IBM paid Killdal 800,000
> > dollar so he would sue over the CP/M code in it.
>
> Miffed at Microsoft, were they?
>
No, moron. Scared Killdal would sue. Cant you read?
> Yes, MS-DOS was very close to CP/M indeed.
> This was a shame; 16 bit computers could do much
> more. MS-DOS was better suited to the old
> 8-bit machines.
>
> A good example of a 16-bit OS is MacOS
> (er, pre X that is). No fancy MMU stuff
> (they didn't have those), but lots of
> application services.
>
When was teh Mac OS -ever- a 16 bit OS?
> [snip]
> > > It *was*. Those old 8-bit machines were
> > > awful. They could address 64k; the ones
> > > that had 128k used bank switching, which
> > > is horrid.
> >
> > It worked very well for me. and others I knew.
>
> You never tried to program one, I think.
>
What does that matter? It worked well for me.
> Programs like AppleWorks were remarkable
> coups of software engineering, in that
> they were able to cope with such a horrid
> execution environment.
>
It wasnt horrid AT THE TIME.
> But such efforts are, in a sense, wasted;
> all the clever coding that made AppleWords
> possible could have been better applied
> to more substatial features.
>
What substantial features did Appleworks need in 1987, that Appleworks
didnt have?
> [snip]
> > > > They could support great apps at the time. I was using Appleworks with
> 1
> > > > meg of memory when the DOS world thought 640k was all teh memory you
> > > > needed.
> > >
> > > Apple IIs could directly address 48k of RAM, but
> > > with bank switching could get to more. 64k wasn't
> > > too bad; after that you were bank switching like
> > > a maniac. It was very problematic.
> >
> > Dont you mean they could directly address 64k of memory?
>
> Not RAM. There was some ROM and some I/O memory
> mapped into the address space. They could have 64k
> of RAM, but you had to switch banks to get to it.
>
> > > IBM PC's could do the same thing; it was
> > > called expanded memory, and you could access
> > > >640k that way.
> >
> > And I was accessing 1 meg while you PeeCee people were giddy over the
> > possiblity of 640K.
>
> I meant, of course, *more than* 640k.
>
> The 8086 and 8088 could address 1 megabyte of
> memory directly, but the IBM PC had lots of
> hardware IO stuff mapped into the top of the
> address space. Thus it could not be used for
> RAM, just as with the Apple II.
>
Except I WAS running Appleworks with 1 meg of RAM and almost all of it
was accessible to Appleworks.
> And as with the Apple II, you could
> use bank switching to go beyond that.
>
> > > It's a horrible hack in any computer, but
> > > even that works better on the IBM PC.
> > > On the PC your back was 64k in size-
> > > on an Apple II it was 16k. You could
> > > work in bigger chunks on the PC, a
> > > definite plus.
> >
> > The end user didnt see any of that.
>
> No, what the end user saw was that
> PC applications were better. They
> ran faster and they had more features.
>
No, they didnt. No they werent. No they didnt. No they didnt.
> Developers saw that they could
> program with Turbo Pascal. *That*
> was a big deal. :D
>
Really? They saw they coould program with Turbo Pascal? They must have
discovered this after finding out Pascal was used on the Apple II
family.
> [snip]
> > > > > Game developers were like other developers-
> > > > > they switched when switching would allow
> > > > > them to produce a more competitive product,
> > > > > and only then.
> > > >
> > > > ... a competitive product made by ... micro$oft.
> > >
> > > You know, that comment makes it way too obvious
> > > that you didn't actually bother to read the paragraph
> > > you were responding to.
> >
> > Does it? I dont think so.
>
> You know: "allow them to produce a more
> competitive product"; can the "them" really
> be construed to refer to Microsoft somehow?
>
> I think it can only refer to "game developers"
> or "other developers".
Too bad.
--
Rick
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