Linux-Development-Sys Digest #233, Volume #6 Thu, 7 Jan 99 19:14:04 EST
Contents:
Re: Registry for Linux - Bad idea (Alexander Viro)
Re: disheartened gnome developer (Perry Pip)
Re: lp0 on fire in 2.1.131 (Bill Davidsen)
Much easier way to crash X (Jeffrey Tsao)
Re: Programming CDROM (Daniel N. Sands)
Kernel 2.2.0-pre5 (compilation error) (Christoph Egger)
Re: How to run Windows Applications on Linux (Bill Anderson)
lock_kernel in 2.2.0pre4 w/o typo (David Grothe)
lock_kernel in 2.2.0pre4 (David Grothe)
Re: Why I'm dumping Linux, going back to Windblows (Roger Rabbit)
Re: things I'd pay to have developed for Linux... (Andreas Dilger)
Re: 2.2.0.pre4 fs/ntfs/inode.c compilation failure (N1ho)
Re: Why I'm dumping Linux, going back to Windblows (Johan Kullstam)
Re: disheartened gnome developer (jedi)
Re: GUI, The Next Generation (Derek B. Noonburg)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alexander Viro)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: Registry for Linux - Bad idea
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 07:24:33 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
John R. Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> There is a *known* workaround to a registry- and it is a proven
> technology. While we whine and moan about the difficulty of
> dealing with it's file's, the MacOS implements all registry-like
> functions within the resource forks of files.
>
> I'm of the opinion that _this_ data/resource forking of file
> structures will be the "next big thing" for Linux to embrace;
> If we embed registry information into either the executables
> or data files, we can more easily maintain synchronicity.
Wake me up when you'll patch vi so that it could deal with that,
erm, stuff. Ditto for tar, sed, grep, awk, ftpd, yodda, yodda.
> Now all we need is a "trick" to allow us to use the data fork
> normally (transparent to the existing API) and still allow a
> means to re-focus a read on a resource fork. It'd also be
> real nice to allow multiple "resource" forks, too...
Then wait till we'll have layered filesystems and implement
broken-as-Mac-fs to mount it atop of the file. Don't force this BS
on the rest of system. Or, better yet, read original PARC works miscopied
by Apple and figure out WTF resource fork is and what kind of environment
does it assume (MacOS lacks it). Hint: closures. When you'll rewrite the
system in functional language resource forks will be of great use. Please,
wake me up when it will happen.
--
Luser, n.:
Human-like creature that doesn't dare to use elevator, because of
its belief that only horrible geeks can master arcane and obscure art of
using control panel.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.x
Subject: Re: disheartened gnome developer
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 19:32:14 GMT
On 7 Jan 1999 05:41:24 GMT, Navindra Umanee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Agreed. I'd add that people should also understand the implications
>of GPL'ing their work.
And so it is with any software license. But what GPL strives to create
(perhaps not perfectly) is a "share and share alike" environment. In other
words, all developers are on the same level, all developers are treated as
equals and are working together. At least that's what the license strives
for.
>[some dialog snipped - context here is QPL]
>Sure you can fork the development.
>
>> on a CVS repository and have yourself and others commit patches to on it.
>
>Okay, here I admit I'm not sure what "in a form that is separate from
>the Software" means. Considering patches though, you can put the
>patches themselves in CVS alongside the original tree (you can
>generate diffs from the original easily enough from a local PRCS/CVS
>tree).
>
And you can set up Gnu Autoconf to automagically apply the patches when
the ./configure script is run.
But suppose you fork the code and create your own version called NavQt,
distributed as patch+original. If your version becomes popular, Troll Tech
can instantly include your patches in their version, making it part of
thier *commercial* product, charging people money for the commercial
version. You are not on the same level with them. You do not have equal
rights, even to your own work, under the qpl. If you can accept that,
that's fine for you.
Redhat is spending $$$ on gnome development. But nowhere in the copyright
or license does it say that they exclusivly own or control it. They are
part owners of the copyright, and if you contribute a worthwhile patch,
you become a part owner too. Redhat plans to make money selling service
and support for gnome, which you can do as well.
So there is a key difference in business model here. Redhat dishes out
free software under GPL/LGPL and hopes to make money on service and
support. Troll tech is trying to make money via license royalties. In this
respect Troll Tech's business model has more in common with Microsoft than
it does with Redhat.
If your happy with Troll Tech's terms, and want to develop with Qt/KDE, go
for it. If your happy with Microsofts terms, and want to develop with
Visual Studio, go for it. I personally find Gnome/GPL/LGPL the least of
the evils.
Perry
------------------------------
From: Bill Davidsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: lp0 on fire in 2.1.131
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 07:37:28 GMT
Lars Clausen wrote:
>
> On 13 Dec 1998, bill davidsen outgrape:
>
> > I had a chance to show someone Linux, and they had three computers and
> > four printers, all of which work under Win95 and SCO OpenServer. Not
> > only did no combination of printer and system work, the "lp0 on fire"
> > message created the impression that Linux was an in joke. Having code
> > written by people in their teens is a strength of free software, but
> > perhaps massages like lp0 on fire could at least be expanded to include
> > the info that it means the kernel wasn't able to determine what the
> > error was (if any).
> [...]
>
> The 'lp0 on fire' error message exists in most Unixes (except where
> over-eager serious people have forced it out), just like the tunafish note
> in the man entry for tunefs. I think it dates back to Bell Labs, but I'm
> not sure.
If the message started with "unknown error" or something else
informative, the "on fire" would be amusing (although not once per line
printed as happens with 2.0.36 on these machines).
Wanting a message which doesn't invite scanning the kernel source is
just common sense if Linux is going to move into non-hacker arenas. The
fact that there's no clue as to why this happens isn't all that
reassuring, either, given that in addition to Win95 and NT, SCO
OpenServer and freeBSD can use the printer.
I don't see any clever tuning or initializing stuff in the source or
docs, I suspect that there's some spiffy flag or tuning parameter which
will make the error go away, although why it's not the default I
couldn't say. The Printing-HOWTO I have says something to the effect
that parport make things work better and the author will write it up
when he (she?) gets a chance to try it.
Not a lot about using or not using parport_pc, either.
Anyway, hopefully someone will enhance the message.
--
bill davidsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CTO, TMR Associates, Inc
Doing interesting things with little computers since 1979.
------------------------------
From: Jeffrey Tsao <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x
Subject: Much easier way to crash X
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 07:37:38 GMT
I simply stayed logged in for a couple of days,
and run applications that require a lot of
color allocation, e.g. netscape, or tcltk using
photo.
Usually on the 2nd day, even if I've closed the
applications on the 1st day (BUT HAVEN'T LOGGED OFF)
all the colors on the screen will suddenly change,
as if something has changed the system palette.
The FVWM taskbar hangs. Usually after another 10 min,
the whole X server crashes.
Any idea what's wrong?
I'm using Pentium 166MHz, S3 video, RedHat 5.2 running
on 8bpp.
Thanks in advance.
Jeffrey Tsao
Biomedical Magnetic Resonance Laboratory
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
p.s. Please don't post a "solution" saying "just log off
everyday". I need to stay logged on to check the stdout
of some programs running in the background. I know I can
redirect the stdout to a file, but it's much easier this
way if LINUX does what it's supposed to do.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Daniel N. Sands)
Subject: Re: Programming CDROM
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 07:46:36 GMT
J.C Chuang wrote:
#-> Hi,
#->
#-> In Linux, when inserting a CD to CDROM, is there any mechanism
#-> that system will notify me automatically that a CD is inserted or a CD is
#-> changed ? I don't think polling is suitable for me ?
Well, on every SCSI and IDE system that I have seen which supports
automounting, they do polling. Even the high-end machines like SGI do
this. Same for Windoze NT/95.
---
Ever get the feeling your guardian angel is laughing?
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christoph Egger)
Subject: Kernel 2.2.0-pre5 (compilation error)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 20:42:08 +0000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
When I try to compile the Kernel 2.2.0-pre5, I get always an compiler
error:
ip_masq.c: In function '__ip_masq_in_get':
ip_masq.c:544: �IP_MASQ_F_DLOOSE� undeclared (first use this function)
ip_masq.c:544: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once for
each function it appears in.)
ip_masq.c: In function �__ip_masq_out_get�:
ip_masq.c:597: �IP_MASQ_F_DLOOSE� undeclared (first use this function)
...
make[3]: *** [ip_masq.o] Error 1
make[3]: Leaving directory �/usr/src/linux-2.2.0-pre5/net/ipv4�
...
Because I don�t know which value IP_MASQ_F_DLOOSE should have, I can�t
fix this problem.
Christoph Egger
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Bill Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: How to run Windows Applications on Linux
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 13:42:45 -0700
"D. Stimtis" wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...
> > Santa's making a list. If You could have any piece of software ported
> > to Linux, other than Microsoft's what would it be?
> >
>
> Corel Draw 8, FreeSpace, and StarCraft (guess which are for work and which for
>play?).
>
Starcraft <1.04 runs well. Ran faster than under Windows on the same
machine.
1.04 (Brood Wars+) apparently sound works, but no screen output. It is
being worked on.
------------------------------
From: David Grothe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: lock_kernel in 2.2.0pre4 w/o typo
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 15:01:21 -0600
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
With SMP set I notice that the lock_kernel function in
include/asm/smplock.h actually performs a lock acquisition. I also
notice that every system call that I have looked at has a lock_kernel at
the beginning.
This is the so-called "big kernel lock".
I thought that in the 2.2 kernels there was a finer grain of locking.
This locking implies that there is only one CPU allowed to execute in
the kernel at any one time.
I am I misreading this? If so, how so? If not, what is the story?
-- Dave
------------------------------
From: David Grothe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: lock_kernel in 2.2.0pre4
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 15:00:04 -0600
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
With SMP set I notice that the lock_kernel function in
include/asm/smplock.h actually performs a lock acquisition. I also
notice that every system call that I have looked at has a lock_kernel at
the beginning.
This is the so-called "bit kernel lock".
I thought that in the 2.2 kernels there was a finer grain of locking.
This locking implies that there is only one CPU allowed to execute in
the kernel at any one time.
I am I misreading this? If so, how so? If not, what is the story?
-- Dave
------------------------------
From: Roger Rabbit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Why I'm dumping Linux, going back to Windblows
Date: 7 Jan 1999 03:07:17 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
==============C4428039CF4971A96CFCF7DF
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I agree completely, UNIX and LINUX do not have the ease of config.
that WINXX does. I personally feel that the speed and stability far
outweighs that one point, plus what I have learned using LINUX about
computer hardware and software is incredible and could never have
happened using MS products. It seems to me this person feels ease of
use is the most important thing, and for him, at this point anyways, LINUX
isn't fulfilling that expectation. There isn't a problem with that, but don't
condem UNIX's for that one thing and remember that what seems like
needless configurations to you is what really turns other people onto this
OS, and also enables this OS to perform tasks that MS products only
wish they could do.
Just my 2 cents,
Roger
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >> I would not expect what I'm trying to learn to not go out of its way
> >> to be hard, too.
> >>
> >> The central idea that Apple and Xerox have contributed to
> >> human-computer interaction is *consistency*. Editing text files to
> >> change your configuration is not in itself consistent. Using the same
> >> format in all of those text files is. Unfortunately, no Unix I know
>
> This is why, you will never become a pilot, or a doctor, or a chemist, or a
> mathematician, or an engineer, or an architecht, or a programer.
>
> You are a passenger, or a patient, or a consumer, or a home owner, or a
> user. There is no shame in this. Unix is very different, it has a steep
> learning curve. There are benifits, rewards, compromises and some
> sacrifices, if you don't like what you see, don't use it. If it's not your
> bag, it's not your bag.
>
> If you change your mind again, or get fed up with windows again, we'll be
> here. And we'll be happy to help you out if you need it. (I'll not promise
> that someone will hold your hand, but there's plenty of people to point you
> in the right directions.)
--
Windows has just detected a mouse movement.
Please restart Windows so the new changes
can take effect.
==============C4428039CF4971A96CFCF7DF
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML>
<P>I agree completely, UNIX and LINUX do not have the ease of config.
<BR>that WINXX does. I personally feel that the speed and stability
far
<BR>outweighs that one point, plus what I have learned using LINUX about
<BR>computer hardware and software is incredible and could never have
<BR>happened using MS products. It seems to me this person feels
ease of
<BR>use is the most important thing, and for him, at this point anyways,
LINUX
<BR>isn't fulfilling that expectation. There isn't a problem with
that, but don't
<BR>condem UNIX's for that one thing and remember that what seems like
<BR>needless configurations to you is what really turns other people onto
this
<BR>OS, and also enables this OS to perform tasks that MS products only
<BR>wish they could do.
<P>Just my 2 cents,
<P>Roger
<BR>
<P>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>> I would not expect what I'm trying to learn to
not go out of its way
<BR>>> to be hard, too.
<BR>>>
<BR>>> The central idea that Apple and Xerox have contributed to
<BR>>> human-computer interaction is *consistency*. Editing text
files to
<BR>>> change your configuration is not in itself consistent. Using
the same
<BR>>> format in all of those text files is. Unfortunately, no Unix
I know
<P>This is why, you will never become a pilot, or a doctor, or a chemist,
or a
<BR>mathematician, or an engineer, or an architecht, or a programer.
<P>You are a passenger, or a patient, or a consumer, or a home owner, or
a
<BR>user. There is no shame in this. Unix is very different,
it has a steep
<BR>learning curve. There are benifits, rewards, compromises and
some
<BR>sacrifices, if you don't like what you see, don't use it. If
it's not your
<BR>bag, it's not your bag.
<P>If you change your mind again, or get fed up with windows again, we'll
be
<BR>here. And we'll be happy to help you out if you need it.
(I'll not promise
<BR>that someone will hold your hand, but there's plenty of people to point
you
<BR>in the right directions.)</BLOCKQUOTE>
<PRE>--
Windows has just detected a mouse movement.
Please restart Windows so the new changes
can take effect.</PRE>
</HTML>
==============C4428039CF4971A96CFCF7DF==
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andreas Dilger)
Subject: Re: things I'd pay to have developed for Linux...
Date: 7 Jan 1999 21:28:13 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
James Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> LVM.
>
>I understand there are patches against 2.1.x for this, but the
>facility isn't stable enough for inclusion in 2.1.x or 2.2.x.
There are actually patches against 2.0.x for LVM. I have been using
them on my laptop for about 6 months without problems. However, I
haven't done much with the LV movement, and I had no success with
resizing an ext2 filesystem (resizing the LV was OK).
It is still nice to be able to create filesystems on the fly, and keep
a big chunk of free disk around instead of partitioning it into
filesystems which I don't know are the right size or not.
Cheers, Andreas
--
Andreas Dilger University of Calgary \"If a man ate a pound of pasta and
Micronet Research Group \ a pound of antipasto, would they
Dept of Electrical & Computer Engineering \ cancel out, leaving him still
http://www-mddsp.enel.ucalgary.ca/People/adilger/ hungry?" -- Dogbert
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (N1ho)
Subject: Re: 2.2.0.pre4 fs/ntfs/inode.c compilation failure
Date: 7 Jan 1999 03:31:12 GMT
Before I could get around to trying Martin's suggestion, the Pre5 kit came out,
and I was able to build it with NO problems whatever!
I don't know if Martin, Alan, Linus or someone else got it into the pre5 tree,
but I definitely appreciate it !!
Martin was also kind enough to mail his posting to me privately, and I want to
publically thank him for taking the time to do that as well.
======
If you send me spam (except for Hormel products), be aware that I'll simply
forward
it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and let AOL's legal team handle it as they see fit.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Why I'm dumping Linux, going back to Windblows
From: Johan Kullstam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 07 Jan 1999 18:23:41 -0500
Tristan Wibberley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Johan Kullstam wrote:
> >
>
> [...]
>
> > what is wrong with the unix command-lines is that they are
> > *inconsistent* not that you have to type a lot. command lines offer a
> > different user interface than menus. sometimes mouse pointing makes
> > sense. sometimes typing a command makes sense.
> >
> > it's all the wacky one letter options changing from app to app (-r is
> > recursive for rm, -R is recursive for ls).
>
> -R is recursive for both. -r just isn't otherwise needed so rm supports
> it as recursive too (since reverse doesn't apply).
well my point is that there are a lot of options and it's hard to
remember them. i know the main ones for tar and grep and ls, but cpio
is hopeless.
> > every program feeling that
> > it's its god-given right to introduce its very own slightly
> > incompatible version of regexp syntax.
>
> AFAIK there are basic syntax and advanced syntax, no more.
>
> > the way find seems to have
> > been done by someone from a non-unix planet and the way it only does
> > 90% of the job leaving you to do things like
> >
> > find <dir> -type f -name '*~' -print | sed 's!.*~!mv \1 ~/.trash!' | sh
>
> I agree find is ugly, and the interface could be better.
>
> have you ever tried -exec?
>
> find <dir> -type f -name '*~' -exec mv \{} ~/.trash/ \;
>
> which also works when there are lots of files.
yes, but it doesn't remove the trailing squiggle which mine does.
--
Johan Kullstam [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Don't Fear the Penguin!
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (jedi)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.x
Subject: Re: disheartened gnome developer
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:09:25 -0800
On 7 Jan 99 22:18:32 GMT, Adam P. Jenkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>But suppose you fork the code and create your own version called NavQt,
>>distributed as patch+original. If your version becomes popular, Troll Tech
>>can instantly include your patches in their version, making it part of
>>thier *commercial* product, charging people money for the commercial
>>version. You are not on the same level with them. You do not have equal
>>rights, even to your own work, under the qpl. If you can accept that,
>>that's fine for you.
>>
>>Redhat is spending $$$ on gnome development. But nowhere in the copyright
>>or license does it say that they exclusivly own or control it. They are
>>part owners of the copyright, and if you contribute a worthwhile patch,
>>you become a part owner too. Redhat plans to make money selling service
>>and support for gnome, which you can do as well.
>>
>>So there is a key difference in business model here. Redhat dishes out
>>free software under GPL/LGPL and hopes to make money on service and
>>support. Troll tech is trying to make money via license royalties. In this
>>respect Troll Tech's business model has more in common with Microsoft than
>>it does with Redhat.
>>
>>If your happy with Troll Tech's terms, and want to develop with Qt/KDE, go
>>for it. If your happy with Microsofts terms, and want to develop with
>>Visual Studio, go for it. I personally find Gnome/GPL/LGPL the least of
>>the evils.
>
>I think you give a pretty balanced overview here, but I think the
>way you insinuate that Troll Tech and Microsoft are similar is
>pretty disingenuous. The way I see Troll Tech is: they offer what
[deletia]
Troll Tech, whatever you or I might think of them, are
still just a company. Idealism and wishful thinking
won't alter that or change the constraints that companies
operate under.
--
Herding Humans ~ Herding Cats
Neither will do a thing unless they really want to, or |||
is coerced to the point where it will scratch your eyes out / | \
as soon as your grip slips.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Derek B. Noonburg)
Subject: Re: GUI, The Next Generation
Date: 7 Jan 1999 00:40:06 -0600
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mike McDonald) writes:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Derek B. Noonburg) writes:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Peter Samuelson) writes:
>
> > How about just drawing window title bars and borders? When you press
> > the magic key, all of the window contents vanish, leaving you with
> > just title bars and borders. You pick the window you want, it gets
> > moved to the front, and then everything redraws. This wouldn't look
> > as cool as translucency, but it would do pretty much what I wanted.
>
> Just the title bar and the border probably aren't enough to choose the
> correct window most of the time. An example would be having two xterms up, one
> in the directory you want and the other off rlogged into some other host. It's
> the contents of the window that allows you to pick.
The title bar and border would almost always be enough for me. I
usually remember about where a window is and what size it is, and if I
don't, the title bar should clear it up.
But I agree: the translucency idea would be even nicer (and cooler
looking). I'm just trying to figure out how this could be done right
now, with no significant changes to X.
> Another problem to overcome would be determining which pixels become
> transparent. Just using the background pixel of each window would probably
> work most of the time for text windows, but for graphics windows, I'm not so
> sure.
I was thinking we could do alpha blending, in the standard computer
graphics sense. All pixels (except maybe the title/border?) would be
made transparent, i.e., blended into whatever was behind them. The
windows would be rendered back-to-front to preserve the appearance of
stacking.
- Derek
------------------------------
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