Linux-Development-Sys Digest #360, Volume #6 Mon, 1 Feb 99 10:13:54 EST
Contents:
Re: Why I'm dumping Linux, going back to Windblows (Stephen Samuel)
Re: Linux Phase 2: A Consumer Operating System (Stephen Samuel)
Re: New free widget library: Notif-0.1 (Emile van Bergen)
Re: PROPOSAL: comp.unix.year-2038 (WAS: 2038 and Linux) (Andreas Schwab)
Re: New free widget library: Notif-0.1 (Peter Dalgaard BSA)
Re: Can't umount /usr: device busy (Martin Recktenwald)
Re: Help new Red Hat user (Wayne Izatt)
Re: Ignorant Socalists (was disheartened gnome developer) (Michael Powe)
re: Notif-0.1 (Frank Hale)
Re: Can't umount /usr: device busy (Karl Heyes)
Re: Debugger ? (Kintug)
Re: Can't umount /usr: device busy (Terry)
Re: Kernel Panic After 2.2.1 Compilation! (Alan McLean)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Stephen Samuel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Why I'm dumping Linux, going back to Windblows
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 03:05:57 -0800
I think that there's an apples and oranges comparison going on here.
If you try and compare shell user support with windows user support,
you're just NOT likely to get agreement. The two service DIFFERENT
MARKETS. The base comparable market to the shell users is Windows
users who use DOS command line.
That being said, I consider the UNIX command line to be far more
powerful and even intuitive. For that reason, I expect that the
shell environment will attract more users than the DOS shell.
Nonetheless, I think that the place to compare Windoze online
tutorials is the GUI interface tutorials.
Both the interface and the audience are more appropriate to the
general Windows user, and THAT (IMHO) is the appropriate place
to put a shell/command line tutorial. Such an interface might
also be pointed to by the SEE ALSO section of the shell man page.
Trying to turn the Man page into a user tutorial is rather like
trying to make an 18 wheeler that will appeal to the corvette crowd.
In both cases, you might be able to do it, but I don't think it would
be worth the trouble.
Peter Samuelson wrote:
>
> [<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>]
> > Beg to differ. You also not thinking here.
>
> OK, can we call a stalemate on who is or is not thinking here now?
> It's a nice flamewar but I think it's been done already.
>
> > An example helps one UNDERSTAND. this is something you or les dont
> > seem to understand.
>
> There are places for examples. But they will not solve The
> Documentation Problem. Problem being, broadly, that lots of people
> complain that Unix is too hard to use.
. . . . .
--
Stephen Samuel (604)876-0426 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The suppression of speech is a hallmark of tyranny.
------------------------------
From: Stephen Samuel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Linux Phase 2: A Consumer Operating System
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 03:14:51 -0800
I think that something worth noting is that the guts of WINDOZE is
far more grotty, messy and difficult to work with than UNIX/Linux.
I would expect that putting a 'nice' front end is goint to be far
easier and worthwhile than doing the same thing was for the microsoft
drones that had to put a nice face on THAT thing.
=====
Making a multi-user system look easy-to-use in a (mostly) single-user
environment is far easier than making a single-user system sane and
stable in a multi-user environment.
steve mcadams wrote:
>
> [Snipped for brevity, quoted material marked with ">"]
> On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 05:17:57 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher
> Browne) wrote:
>
> >The point is that if interesting pieces of the system "solidify" to the
> >point that people can't change them without causing immense breakage,
> >then it's no longer fun playing with those pieces.
>
> Nothing has to solidify to achieve the goal of making Linux easier to
> install, configure, administer, and use. It's a matter of writing the
> code that runs on top of Linux and does this stuff. Linux itself
> doesn't have to change a bit,. -steve
> --------------------------------------------------------
> so what? - http://www.codetools.com/showcase
--
Stephen Samuel (604)876-0426 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The suppression of speech is a hallmark of tyranny.
------------------------------
From: Emile van Bergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.windows.x,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.x
Subject: Re: New free widget library: Notif-0.1
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 12:05:35 +0100
Martin Gall wrote:
>
> You can also do a mini loop like that:
>
> getstr()
> {
> /* display the textfield */
> while (!ok)
> {
> XEvent event;
>
> XtAppNextEvent(app_context,&event);
> XtDispatchEvent(&event);
> }
> return (str);
> }
>
> All the exposures and nonmaskable events are dispatched to the global
> interfaces as usual and you can do a thing like that in your program:
>
> str = getstr();
Right. I think what I mainly want is that I can have many or few of such
mini wait/dispatch loops in my application. Just one in the main() if I
want _pervasive event-drivenness_, in one application, many if I want a
more hierarchical structure in another application...
You see (Joseph), in the above example, the application is in control...
I guess I must be a control-freak ;-)
--
M.vr.gr. / Best regards,
Emile van Bergen (e-mail address: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
This e-mail message is 100% electronically degradeable and produced
on a GNU/Linux system.
------------------------------
From: Andreas Schwab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.software.year-2000,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: comp.unix.year-2038 (WAS: 2038 and Linux)
Date: 01 Feb 1999 12:46:59 +0100
Nix <$}xin{[email protected]> writes:
|> Andreas Schwab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
|>
|> > Andre Fachat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
|> >
|> > |> In comp.os.linux.development.system Bloody Viking <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
|> > |>
|> > |> > Yeah, before the time_t expiry, you tar up the ext2fs partitions, move the
|> > |> > tars, then format the ext2fs partitions into ext3fs, and untar right back.
|> > |>
|> > |> I'm no expert, but how does tar save the dates of a file?
|> >
|> > As an octal ascii string, like all other numbers in the header.
|>
|> That is to say, `as a time_t'?
As seconds since 1970-1-1 00:00:00.
--
Andreas Schwab "And now for something
[EMAIL PROTECTED] completely different"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Peter Dalgaard BSA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.windows.x,comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: New free widget library: Notif-0.1
Date: 01 Feb 1999 13:32:46 +0100
Emile van Bergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Joseph H Allen wrote:
>
> > Ok, I'm going to update Notif to address this issue. I'm hacking
...
> This is a very nice solution to the 'I need pervasive event-drivenness'
> problem! Really, it's as clean as one could get it, judging from the
> above.
Perhaps we should take a moment to thank both correspondents for their
contributions. Most interesting stuff I've seen in this forum
(c.o.l.d.s) for ages! (I've also been annoyed by the GUI tail-wags-dog
problem. Seems to me that GUI designers keep reinventing the OS,
poorly...)
[Trimmed the Newsgroups line a bit, though.]
--
O__ ---- Peter Dalgaard Blegdamsvej 3
c/ /'_ --- Dept. of Biostatistics 2200 Cph. N
(*) \(*) -- University of Copenhagen Denmark Ph: (+45) 35327918
~~~~~~~~~~ - ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) FAX: (+45) 35327907
------------------------------
From: Martin Recktenwald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Can't umount /usr: device busy
Date: 01 Feb 1999 13:15:24 +0100
Markus Schutz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Hi folks,
>
> I've upgraded my Linux box to:
> Linux-2.2.0
> glibc-2.0.7pre6
> I wanted to try something new: drop all libs in /usr/lib. Yes, even
> libc.so and ld-linux.so
>
> The system start works good. I can run the box. But when I try to
> shutdown I get the "Can't umount /usr, device is busy". I've tried to
> check if there are unkilled processes with a 'ps' in the shutdown
> script, but there seem nothing left from /usr running. The only thing I
> suspect still running is ld-linux.so, or some library part that is still
> maped.
>
It's quite likely (as you state yourself) some library part that is
still mapped. You can find out which library it is by looking around
in the /proc filesystem. You can find a list for all libraries a
process is using in /proc/<PID>/maps. It shouldn't be hard to find the
guilty process.
Martin.
--
"Linux 2.2.1 - the Brown Paper Bag release"
Linux Torvalds on linux-kernel ML
------------------------------
From: Wayne Izatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Help new Red Hat user
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:13:29 -0800
Mike Hendrick wrote:
> I'm new to lynux and trying to figure out what compiler is used in the red
> hat version for c++ compiling comparible to xlC which I'm useing on a school
> network to run example c++ programs. I would be grateful for any advice.
> thanks
If I understand your question, you're looking to compile C++ under Red Hat.
RH uses the GNU C/C++ compiler system, so assuming you want to compile a small
program like hello world, you'd create the program in a text file, then type
g++ hello.C
and the result should be an a.out executable.
gcc/g++ have plenty of options, so the documentation would be a good place to
find out more.
------------------------------
From: Michael Powe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.x
Subject: Re: Ignorant Socalists (was disheartened gnome developer)
Date: 31 Jan 1999 23:14:10 -0800
=====BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE=====
Hash: SHA1
>>>>> "Bob" == "Bob Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Bob> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Michael Powe
Bob> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Marcin> Greed is human characteristics, not political
Marcin> characteristics, stupid.
>> Fortunately, your lack of manners is not a human
>> characteristic, but one of persons not brought up in a proper
>> home. You have my sympathy for your deprivation.
Bob> You are wrong on *both* counts.
Hmm, What? You're telling me that you're "natural-born" rude? Sorry,
I don't accept that excuse. Take responsibility for your behavior.
Marcin> Actually, Great Depression was caused by government, or
Marcin> Federal Reserve ineptly replacing clearing system worked
Marcin> out by banks, which successfully defended against runs on
Marcin> banks on the beginning of 20th century for example.
>> A shame your expertise does not match your presumption. The
>> 19th Century and early 20th Century were just a long cycle of
>> economic growth, recession and depression. I don't know to
>> what "runs on banks" you are referring, or why, since the major
>> economic problems of recessions are not associated with these.
Bob> If you don't know what "runs on banks" means then you are
Bob> also ignorant concerning the events of and shortly after
Bob> 1929.
Doh! If you don't know your American economic history, read up on it
and get back to me.
>> There's no such body of evidence. All the evidence is that
>> cooperative projects are far more effective in reaching goals
>> than tooth-and-claw competition. Certainly, cooperation is
>> more effective than the monopolistic capitalism which you
>> unthinkingly worship.
Bob> My yes! You really *do* live in another universe. It is a
Bob> *fact* that Socialism has failed miserably. Furthermore
Bob> Capitalism and a free market created the most effective,
Bob> powerful and largest economy the world has ever seen while
Bob> Socialism has created misery, poverty and a dirty
Bob> environment. This is *fact*. Please take your Socialist
It's only a "fact" in your perfervid imagination. I gather from your
conversation that you are a Windows user because it is a product of
"the most effective, powerful and largest economy the world has ever
seen", and that you abhor linux because it is the miserable,
impoverished and dirty product of "Socialism."
Really, since you're opposed to the Free Software movement, opposed to
the Open Source movement, opposed to everything that is represented in
linux, what are you doing in linux newsgroups? Trolling?
Bob> Propaganda back to the sewer from which it came. Any attempt
Bob> to show you the facts that are before your very eyes does
Bob> nothing more than prove how BLIND you are. You insufferable,
Bob> arrogant pseudo intellectual.
Tsk tsk. I'm being sneered at by a pencil-neck. I'll try to restrain
my laughter.
mp
8<---------------how-easy-is-it-to-demunge-an-address?------------------->8
#! /usr/bin/perl # if you are [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Another Luser):
while ($line = <>){ if ($line =~ m/^\s*$/ ){ last; }
if ($line =~ m/^From: (\S+) \(([^()]*)\)/){ $from_address = $1; } }
if ($from_address =~ m/\S+NOSPAM\S+/){ $x = index($from_address, NOSPAM);
substr($from_address, $x, 6+1) = ""; printf("The real address is %s\n",
$from_address);}else { printf("No munge, just plain %s\n",$from_address);}
printf("\nBrought to you by the Truth In Mail Headers Foundation\n");
8<-----------------------here's-one-example------------------------------>8
- --
Michael Powe
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.trollope.org
Portland, Oregon USA
=====BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE=====
Version: GnuPG v0.9.0 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Encrypted with Mailcrypt 3.5.1 and GNU Privacy Guard
iD4DBQE2tVQO755rgEMD+T8RAsQnAJ45BGs7n0lsinIFd6wiaSCUJPcwFACYvok6
Po/IgF+wIWB7Rs+kcVdDPQ==
=BKu1
=====END PGP SIGNATURE=====
------------------------------
From: Frank Hale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.x
Subject: re: Notif-0.1
Date: 1 Feb 1999 13:03:35 GMT
Joseph H Allen wrote:
>
> It verified fine. Several people have already downloaded it. The only
> problem I can think of is that the period on the end is not part of the
> link (sorry). It's just a period:
>
> ftp://virek.vwis.com/pub/jhallen/notif-0.1.tar.Z
>
I tried it again and it still doesn't work for me, It will resolve to
the IP but it never connects, I guess it times out. Do you have any
mirror sites? I would like to take a look at the toolkit.
--
From: Frank Hale
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ICQ: 7205161
Website: http://www.franksstuff.com/
"I say line-ux you say lynn-ux,
whats the difference? Its still better than windows"
------------------------------
From: Karl Heyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Can't umount /usr: device busy
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 13:52:55 -0500
Thomas Zajic wrote:
> Markus Schutz wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> > I've upgraded my Linux box to:
> > Linux-2.2.0
> > glibc-2.0.7pre6
> > I wanted to try something new: drop all libs in /usr/lib. Yes, even
> > libc.so and ld-linux.so
>
> Which was probably not a good idea - they should go into /lib,
> which in turn should be on the root partition. Remember, the
> system needs to do some stuff already _before_ mounting all
> other (ie. non-root) partitions. Therefore, everything needed
> to startup the system (init, mount, ...) needs to be on the
> root partition (think about it, it�s a Catch-22: imagine that
> you�d want to mount /usr on startup, and your �mount� binary
> is in /usr/bin/mount ... same principle ;-)
>
What your referring to is correct, however libc.so etc that is referred
to is for link time building applications. Utilities like ls etc will link to
libc.so.X which will be in /lib while compile-link will process will
require the *.so file which is best placed in /usr/lib. It will only have
to be a symlink to /lib/libc.so.6 for example.
>
> > The system start works good. I can run the box.
>
> Lucky guy! Seems like all the binaries needed for startup are
> statically linked on your system ... guess what would have
> happened if they weren�t?! Hint: Catch-22. Let�s assume all
> your startup binaries are statically linked, except �mount�.
>
> �mount� is dynamically linked, so it obviously needs libc.so
> and ld-linux.so (plus maybe a couple of others) to operate.
> Well, but to access libc.so and ld-linux.so, which you moved
> into /usr/lib (with best intentions), /usr first needs to be
> ... exactly, it needs to be _mounted_! This is done with �mount�.
> Restart at the beginning of this paragraph. Got it? ;-)
>
well fsck utilites are best statically linked and maybe a limited shell,
just for those times the libs have really spannered.
>
> > But when I try to
> > shutdown I get the "Can't umount /usr, device is busy". I've tried to
> > check if there are unkilled processes with a 'ps' in the shutdown
> > script, but there seem nothing left from /usr running. The only thing I
> > suspect still running is ld-linux.so, or some library part that is still
> > maped.
>
> That�d be my guess, too - some binary needed for the system
> shutdown is probably dynamically linked.
use the fuser -m /usr command to determine what process is using the
partition. It's probably a dynamic library being referenced.
>
>
> > Does anyone know a solution to that. It's a bit annoying to have a
> > systematic fschk on /usr on system startup. Perhaps there is something
> > more to do than 'killall5 -15; killall5 -9' in the shutdown script, but
> > I can't figure out what is missing. There is the call to 'sync' before
> > the 'killall5'.
>
the killall5's are really a last stage for the scripts to cleanup. It maybe
ok,
depending on the process involved.
karl.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:42:11 -0800
From: Kintug <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc
Subject: Re: Debugger ?
Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:
> Kintug wrote:
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Could anyone recommend good assembler-level debugger (x86) for
> > Linux/FreeBSD? Something like adb would rock.
>
> I don't know adb but the combination of gdb and ddd will do
> the job.
>
> Erik
> --
> +-------------------------------------------------+
> Erik de Castro Lopo [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> +-------------------------------------------------+
> Windows NT : An evolutionary dead end.
Yeah, GUI is cool... :-)
But I'm interesting in something like adb's -w switch which allows you
to modify the code in memory and adb will keep disk file in sync with
your changes.
Dmitri.
------------------------------
From: Terry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Can't umount /usr: device busy
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 09:04:16 -0500
> I've upgraded my Linux box to:
> Linux-2.2.0
> glibc-2.0.7pre6
> I wanted to try something new: drop all libs in /usr/lib. Yes, even
> libc.so and ld-linux.so
>
> The system start works good. I can run the box. But when I try to
> shutdown I get the "Can't umount /usr, device is busy". I've tried to
> check if there are unkilled processes with a 'ps' in the shutdown
> script, but there seem nothing left from /usr running. The only thing I
> suspect still running is ld-linux.so, or some library part that is still
> maped.
Ditto what everyone else has said. In addition, I ran into the
same problem when I upgraded from bash-1.47 (or whatever comes
with RH 5.2) to bash 2.02. Seems bash 2.02 links with
libcurses -- which is in /usr/lib. I fixed the problem by
copying libcurses to /lib and adding "/lib" at the beginning of
"/etc/ld.so.conf".
Terry
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alan McLean)
Subject: Re: Kernel Panic After 2.2.1 Compilation!
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 14:18:21 GMT
Ki-Won Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Partition check:
> request_module[ide-disk]: Root fs not mounted
> hdb: driver not present
> VFS: Cannot open root device 03:41
> Kernel panic: VFS: Unable to mount fs on 03:41
>
> I have 2 HDs in my box, one is hda which has windows on it and hdb of
> course has our much beloved Linux. Why is it requesting a module
> "[ide-disk]"? And I don't understand why it's saying "hdb: driver not
> present". And what's VFS? I never got these errors with 2.0.36, so I'm
> not familiar with the terms. I'd really appreciate it if you could throw
> me a rope and suggest some solutions to this problem. Thank you very much
> in advance.
>
> With Best,
>
> Steve
You answered "M" to the following question when configuring
your kernel,
Include IDE/ATA-2 DISK support (CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK) [Y/m/n/?]
Since your / filesystem is on the IDE disk you must answer "Y"
to this question. Otherwise (as above), the kernel doesn't know
how to speak to your IDE disk in order to mount your / filesystem
which contains this module (which allows your kernel to speak
to your IDE disk!).
Here's a snippet from /usr/src/linux/Documentation/Configure.help
which gives good information on the configuration process.
Include IDE/ATA-2 DISK support
CONFIG_BLK_DEV_IDEDISK
<snip>
The module will be called ide-disk.o. Do not compile this driver
as a module if your root filesystem (the one containing the
directory /) is located on the IDE disk. If unsure, say Y.
So, build/install another kernel and answer "Y" to the above question.
-amcl
------------------------------
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End of Linux-Development-System Digest
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