Linux-Development-Sys Digest #931, Volume #6 Sun, 4 Jul 99 03:14:41 EDT
Contents:
Re: Why we are still holding on to X Windows (/dev/null)
Re: Why we are still holding on to X Windows (/dev/null)
Linux/Perl module installation problems (mSQL) (Brent Mondoux)
Re: C++ templates: More than Turing Complete? (Davin McCall)
Re: Domain Names Limited to two or three Characters? (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn?= Reese)
Re: Why we are still holding on to X Windows (Mario Klebsch)
Re: Why we are still holding on to X Windows (Mario Klebsch)
Re: Why we are still holding on to X Windows (Mario Klebsch)
Re: Why we are still holding on to X Windows (Mario Klebsch)
Re: Why we are still holding on to X Windows (Mario Klebsch)
Re: Download freeBSD and Slackware 4 (Alexander Viro)
Download freeBSD and Slackware 4 (vineet)
getrusage Behavior (Kurt Wall)
Re: usleep() (Daniel R. Grayson)
Re: Why not C++ ("Carl L. Gay")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: /dev/null <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: Why we are still holding on to X Windows
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 02:32:58 +0000
It doesn't seem like any of you have mentioned Gnome's sound-event stuff
just thought I'd bring it up...basically does what you're looking for
right?
Oh, and KDE does it too
and I think WindowMaker has support for it...but I could be wrong about
that
Jeff
Mario Klebsch wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alan McLean) writes:
>
> >Mario Klebsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> This topic is just not covered by X11.
>
> >You are right. However, this is by design.
>
> I know, and this is, what I criticise. Of course I am vary well aware,
> that it is not needed inside the X server, but IMHO it is needed, if
> X wants to compete with MS-Windows or MacOS.
>
> >Now obviously not every vendor (especially proprietary ones) will
> >have the same UI or look-and-feel requirements. You are essentially
> >comparing the UI policy of one OS, Microsoft or the Mac, against
> >that of multiple Unix-like OS'.
>
> As I say, there is no real standard except X11, so if X11 would include
> a standard GUI, it probably would autoimaticly become standard on most
> systems. Well, this train probably has left a long time ago. :-(
>
> >Keep in mind you have stepped into a new world, with new ideas and
> >perspectives.
>
> I have not steped anywhere, I am here for over ten years!
>
> 73, Mario
> --
> Mario Klebsch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: /dev/null <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: Why we are still holding on to X Windows
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 02:38:36 +0000
I'd just like to add the fact that sound on events can really slow down
a system
when I ran Windows (long time ago in a galaxy far far away) I always
turned off all the damn sounds because they annoyed the hell out of me
The few people I know of who *do* like sounds on damn near every event
are people who will never get to anything beyond "How do I send email
again?"
I have a funny feeling that there aren't any (many?) unix users that are
quite that...uninformed.
Oh, and Gnome/KDE have support for sounds on events (and more events
than Windows has I might add)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brent Mondoux)
Subject: Linux/Perl module installation problems (mSQL)
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 03:32:05 GMT
Hello,
I was wondering if you could provide me some assistance with
respect to installing the mSQL perl module. I downloaded from CPAN
(http://www.cpan.org) the module (Msql-Mysql-modules-1.2200.tar.gz).
I have tried to install this and troubleshoot this however to no
avail, I have not succeeded.
When I run 'make test' the following errors occur:
[root@host531 Msql-Mysql-modules-1.2200]# make test
make[1]: Entering directory
`/home/admin/cgimodules/Msql-Mysql-modules-1.2200/mS
QL'
make[1]: Leaving directory
`/home/admin/cgimodules/Msql-Mysql-modules-1.2200/mSQ
L'
make[1]: Entering directory
`/home/admin/cgimodules/Msql-Mysql-modules-1.2200/mS
QL'
PERL_DL_NONLAZY=1 /usr/bin/perl -I../blib/arch -I../blib/lib
-I/usr/lib/perl5/5.
00503/i386-linux -I/usr/lib/perl5/5.00503 -e 'use Test::Harness
qw(&runtests $ve
rbose); $verbose=0; runtests @ARGV;' t/*.t
t/00base............install_driver(mSQL) failed: Can't load
'../blib/arch/auto/D
BD/mSQL/mSQL.so' for module DBD::mSQL:
./blib/arch/auto/DBD/mSQL/mSQL.so: undef
ined symbol: msqlErrMsg at
/usr/lib/perl5/5.00503/i386-linux/DynaLoader.pm line
169.
at (eval 1) line 3
at t/00base.t line 38
dubious
Test returned status 255 (wstat 65280, 0xff00)
Undefined subroutine &Test::Harness::WCOREDUMP called at
/usr/lib/perl5/5.00503/
Test/Harness.pm line 288.
make[1]: *** [test_dynamic] Error 255
make[1]: Leaving directory
`/home/admin/cgimodules/Msql-Mysql-modules-1.2200/mSQ
L'
make: *** [test] Error 2
I have tried analyzing the scripts in the 'tests' directory
however my knowledge does not suffice to follow them. I have the
following setup in my environment:
- Redhat Linux 6
- mSQL 2.0.10.1
- Perl 5.00503
mSQL is running fine and works great even with the w3-mSQL
interface (as I have an application running on the web using that
technology and functioning). I have tested creation, deletion and
modification of databases and it works fine in mSQL. The reason that
I wish to use the mSQL perl module is because the w3-mSQL interface is
much too slow and I've seen this one in action and it is by far
superior.
I am at a loss of words and over 120 hours of failed
troubleshooting attempts. Any and all knowledge that you could donate
to me would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Brent
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Davin McCall)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.networking
Subject: Re: C++ templates: More than Turing Complete?
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 04:16:33 GMT
On 3 Jul 1999 01:03:33 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nathan Myers)
wrote:
>Any complete program is just, ultimately, a sequence of instructions,
>and any Turing-complete language can generate them.
>
>Split the program into pieces, and then you have interfaces between
>the pieces. Turing completeness says nothing about those interfaces.
>
>Getting those interfaces right, and getting the cut lines in the
>right places to allow them to be right, is the domain of engineering.
>C++ has a large variety of very strong tools to describe library
>interfaces because it is an engineering language. C has many fewer
>such tools.
So you are saying that the choice of programming language is an
engineering issue, not a computer science issue?
>>Perhaps I was taking you too literally again. If not: Maybe principles
>>are derived from experience (that is probably arguable in itself)
>
>You think maybe principles come from a big divinely inspired book?
Principles are ideas which explain something, or provide a reason to
do a thing one way rather than another (eg principle of least
privelege). Certainly principles could be determined from experience;
but I see no reason why they must be.
This from WordNet:
principle n 1: a basic generalization that is accepted as true and
that can be used as a basis for reasoning or conduct; "their
principles of composition characterized all their works" [syn: rule]
2: a rule or standard especially of good behavior: "a man of
principle"; "he will not violate his principles" 3: a basic truth or
law or assumption: "the principles of democracy" 4: a rule or law
concerning a natural phenomenon or the function of a mechanical
system: "the principle of the conservation of mass"; "the principle of
jet propulsion"; "the right-hand rule for inductive fields" [syn:
rule] 5: rule of personal conduct [syn: precept] 6: an explanation of
the working of some device in terms of laws of nature; "the principles
of internal-combusiton engines" [syn: rationale]
>Principles, divorced from experience, rot. If you want to understand
>good principles, the only trustworthy source is good code.
But why C++ code? The same principles found in the C++ language are
applied in other languages also.
> If you
>want to understand the principles behind the success of C++, you must
>study good, real C++ programs and libraries. There are no shortcuts.
I disagree. My reasons have been stated. You are saying something
analogous to this:
"if you want to know how a fuel injected engine works [-> the
principles behind it], you must study the engine in car {X}. Although
cars {Y} and {Z} have similar engines, studying them will not reveal
*any* of the principles used to design the engine of car {X}."
Davin.
__________________________________________________________
*** davmac - sharkin'!! [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
my programming page: http://yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au/~davmac/
------------------------------
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F8rn?= Reese <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Domain Names Limited to two or three Characters?
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 16:24:33 +0000
JDJohnson wrote:
> Are domain names limited to two (.uk, .de) or three (.com, .org, .edu, .gov)
> characters in length? If not is there a max number of characters?
Currently there longest domain name is .arpa, and others (.firm, .shop,
.info) may be comming soon.
I am not sure if there is a well-defined upper limit. There seem to
be some contradition between RFC 952 and RFC 1123.
RFC 952 says
"A "name" (Net, Host, Gateway, or Domain name) is a text string up
to 24 characters drawn from the alphabet (A-Z), digits (0-9), minus
sign (-), and period (.)"
whereas RFC 1123 says (in section 6.1.3.5)
"The DNS defines domain name syntax very generally -- a
string of labels each containing up to 63 8-bit octets,
separated by dots, and with a maximum total of 255
octets."
I do not know if any of these RFCs have been obsoleted by more
recent RFCs.
If you really need an upper limit I guess 256 would be the most
sane choice.
------------------------------
From: Mario Klebsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: Why we are still holding on to X Windows
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:04:17 +0200
Marcus Sundberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>Neal Tucker wrote:
>> It should not be up to the application to figure out which
>> set of speakers is associated with which keyboard.
>No it shouldn't, but it shouldn't be up to the windowing system either.
>It should be up to the user, by setting an environment variable or some
>such.
What about: It should be up to the systems configuration, to supply
reasonable defaults for that environment variables?
IMHO the really missing part is session management. I can e.g. imagine
to have the screen, mouse and keyboard attached to one computer and the
speakers and microphone to a second one, standing right next to the first
one. I even can imagine two displays share the audio hardware.
For X applications, the connection to a common display is a link to what
a user would call a session. All applications connected to my display are
my session. Of course it does not include all those applications connected
to the pseudo ttys in the various xterms, telnetds and rloginds running on
all machines involved.
But nevertheless I do my best to keep a $DISPLAY variable in every context
having the correct value pointing to my current display. This alone is hard
enough, as everybody can see, who ever tried this in an environment, where
there are systems with more than one display. Why asking the user to do all
this for audio services, too?
This all is done only to keep all my X applications assiciated to my display,
so adding a feature to associate other resources like a printer, a speaker,
sound, a scanner or other stuff with a display (session] using X11 probably
can be done today without any modifications in X11. Resources probably would
do fine. The only missing point is some agreement about how to do it, which
keys and which protocols to use for each purpose.
73, Mario
--
Mario Klebsch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Mario Klebsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: Why we are still holding on to X Windows
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:12:49 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mike McDonald) writes:
> Second, X isn't suppose to have a "style guide".
It does not matter, wether X is supposed to have a style guide. a GUI
does need a stype guide, especially if it is spread around several
distinct programs.
Well, one could argue, wether a user interface violating a style guide
is not graphical, but it is one of the most important benefits of common
graphical user interfaces, that the user can have knowledge from appli-
cation A to use application B.
> You're real problem is not that there isn't one written done for Unix/X11
>but that there are too many. A completely different problem.
You call it too many standards, I call it absence of standard. How do
you call something standard, if it is not agreed upon?
73, Mario
--
Mario Klebsch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Mario Klebsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: Why we are still holding on to X Windows
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:19:14 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alan McLean) writes:
>Mario Klebsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> This topic is just not covered by X11.
>You are right. However, this is by design.
I know, and this is, what I criticise. Of course I am vary well aware,
that it is not needed inside the X server, but IMHO it is needed, if
X wants to compete with MS-Windows or MacOS.
>Now obviously not every vendor (especially proprietary ones) will
>have the same UI or look-and-feel requirements. You are essentially
>comparing the UI policy of one OS, Microsoft or the Mac, against
>that of multiple Unix-like OS'.
As I say, there is no real standard except X11, so if X11 would include
a standard GUI, it probably would autoimaticly become standard on most
systems. Well, this train probably has left a long time ago. :-(
>Keep in mind you have stepped into a new world, with new ideas and
>perspectives.
I have not steped anywhere, I am here for over ten years!
73, Mario
--
Mario Klebsch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Mario Klebsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: Why we are still holding on to X Windows
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:28:21 +0200
Todd Knarr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>In comp.os.linux.development.system Justin Vallon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I'm not sure that the distinction is that clear. In 99.99% of the
>> cases, an applications sound I/O and graphics I/O go to the same
>> place: the user. It seems superfluous to create an alternate
>> protocol.
>Consider this: while both go to the same place, not all programs that
>use graphics need sound and not all programs that need sound need
>graphics. Making the sound protocol part of X, or piggybacking it as
>an X extension, implies that _only_ programs that use X can use the
>sound protocol. Making it a seperate protocol means that programs
>that have no use for graphics at all can still use the sound
>protocol.
Integration with X11 and having a separate protocol are not oposite
positions. You can have your own sound protocol, but integrate it
into X11. As I have mentioned in an early posting, I can imagine using
X11 resources to store references to use for audio. Perhaps the
references can use a syntax like URLs.
73, Mario
--
Mario Klebsch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Mario Klebsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: Why we are still holding on to X Windows
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:23:19 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chris Hedley) writes:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Mario Klebsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> nothing like this for UNIX. Well, there is a Motif style guide, and
>> an open windows style guide and probably others, but none of them is
>> about UNIX or about X11.
>I have a Motif Style Guide lying around somewhere. I can't find it at
>the moment, but it's very large and heavy.
.. and I have read it several years ago, as I have done with the open
look styleguide, too. I found lots of their principles in MacOS and in
Windows 95, but a lot of X11 programs still do ignore these guides
completely. :-(
And the developer community would have to agree on one of them. And year
after year lots of programs are written, each only acording to the autors
stype giude. Delaying only makes the problem bigger and bigger.
73, Mario
--
Mario Klebsch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alexander Viro)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Download freeBSD and Slackware 4
Date: 4 Jul 1999 01:18:16 -0400
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
vineet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Can anyone tell me the site where I can download the full and latest
>version of FreeBSD and Slackware 4?
ftp.cdrom.com. What does it have to c.o.l.d.s, BTW? Obc.o.l.setup: your
newsreader is badly b0rken - it leaves a mess in the end of lines.
--
"You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!"
"Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert.
------------------------------
From: vineet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Download freeBSD and Slackware 4
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 04:30:48 GMT
Can anyone tell me the site where I can download the full and latest
version of FreeBSD and Slackware 4?
================== Posted via SearchLinux ==================
http://www.searchlinux.com
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kurt Wall)
Subject: getrusage Behavior
Date: 4 Jul 1999 06:32:13 GMT
Hello,
I have a question about getrusage(). It's prototype is
int getrusage(int who, struct getrusage *usage);
`who' can be one of RUSAGE_SELF or RUSAGE_CHILDREN. I just want to make
sure that if I want the resource usage of both the parent and any child
processes, I have to call getrusage twice, once for the parent
(RUSAGE_SELF) and once for children (RUSAGE_CHILDREN). I tried ORing
RUSAGE_SELF and RUSAGE_CHILDREN and getrusage complained about an invalid
argument. Erik Troan's and Michael Johnson's book, Linux Application
Development, says that you can use RUSAGE_BOTH for `who', but when I tried
that, getrusage still complained about an invalid argument.
Comments? Thanks,
Kurt
--
Computers are unreliable, but humans are even more unreliable.
Any system which depends on human reliability is unreliable.
-- Gilb
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Daniel R. Grayson)
Subject: Re: usleep()
Date: 03 Jul 1999 07:59:29 -0500
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Peter Samuelson) writes:
> [Daniel R. Grayson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>]
> > Have you ever wished usleep() were accurate? It's possible, because
> > select() with timeout is accurate.
>
> So use select() with timeout (and no fd's).
Sure, I've done that already, but it was pretty annoying, and it might be a
good idea to save other programmers the trouble of having to figure that out.
What I'm getting at is, wouldn't it be a good development for the linux
system if usleep() provided timing as accurate as select() does, or is there
some reason for the inaccurate design?
------------------------------
From: "Carl L. Gay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: Why not C++
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 18:15:30 +0000
Bruce Hoult wrote:
>
> In article <7lhcpa$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, o r c @ p e l l . p o r
> t l a n d . o r . u s (david parsons) wrote:
>
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > Bruce Hoult <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >Dylan is not several hundred percent slower than C as Java is.
> >
> > Have you benchmarked Java vs C on the same machine? (No, I don't
> > mean benchmarking C on a machine vs Java running on a p-machine
> > on that machine);
>
> No, I haven't. Although I have a number of implementations of Java (from
> Netscape, Microsoft, Apple, Metrowerks, Sun and blackdown -- if I haven't
> missed any), I don't yet have any direct-to-machinecode implementations.
>
> Has anyone? 99.99% of the Java out there is interpreted or on-the-fly
> compiled and is much slower than C/C++/Pascal/Dylan/FORTRAN, so that's
> what I'm comparing against.
[Not following the discussion closely...]
I did a _very_ simple benchmark of C, Dylan, and Java, essentially
just doing a bunch of single-float array reads/writes. Java came
out on top. This obviously doesn't mean much since it wasn't a
real program, but at least for basic FP operations Java wasn't bad.
I used:
VC++ 6.0 (default optimizations)
Java 1.1 with the Symantec JIT
(Java 1.2 with the beta HotSpot was the slowest, by the way)
Harlequin Dylan 2.0 alpha something or other
The Dylan compiler doesn't do any special optimization for the
FP stack yet. I have no doubt that cranking up the optimizations
on the C version would put it in the lead.
> > there's certainly nothing in the design of
> > Java that would make it much slower than C on the same machine.
>
> No, that's not true. There are features in Java which are fundamentally slow.
I wish people would elaborate when they make comments like
these. ;-) I don't doubt that you're right, but I'd like
to know what those features are.
> > Dylan is Yet Another Pascal, isn't it? It looks like the bastard
> > child of a shotgun marriage between Ada and Pascal.
>
> Perhaps you're thinking of Modula-2 or Oberon?
It appears s/he looked no further than the syntax.
-Carl
------------------------------
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