Linux-Development-Sys Digest #881, Volume #7 Fri, 19 May 00 17:13:22 EDT
Contents:
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux (Tim Hockin)
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux ("Peter T. Breuer")
Re: POXIS Semaphores ("Norman Black")
Re: linux kernel not C++ friendly? (Kaz Kylheku)
Re: POXIS Semaphores (Kaz Kylheku)
Re: debugging (Kaz Kylheku)
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux (Leslie Mikesell)
Re: serial port RTS control ? ("Fred")
Re: serial port RTS control ? ("Fred")
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux (brian moore)
Re: Need to find my IP address (Nix)
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux ("Anthony W. Youngman")
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux ("Anthony W. Youngman")
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux (JEDIDIAH)
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux (brian moore)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tim Hockin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Date: 19 May 2000 18:02:57 GMT
In comp.os.linux.misc martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: How about an easy-to-use text editor ? (console, not GUI please :) ?
vi is very easy to use. People are so afraid of vi. learn how to hit
<esc>. The only things you REALLY need are:
i
u
d
:w
:q
!
/
then you'll want
y
o
a
G
gg
:<num>
:g
:r
--
Tim Hockin
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
This program has been brought to you by the language C and the number F.
------------------------------
From: "Peter T. Breuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Date: 19 May 2000 19:22:26 GMT
In comp.os.linux.misc Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: In article <8g31si$6ri$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
: Peter T. Breuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:>/opt is for independent packages. But there is a new fsstd coming up.
: Oh good - we didn't have quite enough standard layouts already...
: Are they finally going to abstract it out to a centralized
: local configuration setting that controls where things land
:>There is one.
: More like 20 - and they still don't correctly address issues of
There is actually one standard. There are twenty interpretations of it.
: having local copies AND (perhaps multiple) network-mounted directories
: of the same thing, or things where the config files should be
: network-shared but not the binaries or vice-versa.
I think debian is getting it righter. At least dpkg is not blowing
up completely when it discovers it can't write to an NFS directory
(which already contains the files it wants to put there). What else
did they think /usr/share was for?
And yes, I agree. Redhat is just not set up for use in a classic shared
networked environment. It's not the target market. You might as well
start out with slackware. Same difference.
Peter
------------------------------
From: "Norman Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: POXIS Semaphores
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:34:29 -0700
Reply-To: "Norman Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
You can use sys/sem.h, and the associated sys/ipc.h
These are System V IPC semaphores. Other than that I think it comes down to
implementing your own.
--
Norman Black
Stony Brook Software
the reply, fubar => ix.netcom
"Antony Holmes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:bjcV4.282$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> I'm trying to create named semaphores using the POSIX function sem_open().
>
> Unfortunately whilst being defined in semaphore.h and included in
> libpthread.a each time I use it I get an error returned "Function not
> implemented"!
>
> Does anyone know where I can get a copy of either the function or a
pthread
> library with the correct functionality included?
>
> TIA
>
> Antony
>
>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kaz Kylheku)
Subject: Re: linux kernel not C++ friendly?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:41:03 GMT
On Fri, 19 May 2000 12:55:00 -0500, Bryan Hackney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>
>[...]
>> >libc. You don't want to do this.
>>
>> I just wrote a module in C++ and it loaded just nicely into 2.2.12.
>>
>> Here is the module:
>>
>[...]
>
>Bravo. Nothing like proving a point. Whether it's worth it is a judgement
>call or a personal preference or something else, not a technical argument.
>
>It's _amazing_ how many supposedly competent coders think C++ is mostly
>about iostreams and operator overloading. It's also amazing how many
>think C++ is an automatic performance hit.
By the way, last night I got rid of C++ keywords in the include/linux
subdirectory of 2.3.99pre8. I will slowly work through the other directories,
like all the architecture-specific asm's and so on.
So far I found occurences of ``class'', ``new'', ``delete'', ``private'',
``bool'', ``virtual'', ``namespace'' as well as ``typename'',
believe it or not!
I'm doing the changes in such a way that no .c files have to be changed.
If there is a structure member in ``module.h'' whose name is a C++ keyword, I
do this trick:
#ifndef __cplusplus
#define module_private private
#endif
struct module_struct {
void *module_private;
/*...*/
};
So when this is compiled as C, the structure member will be named ``private'',
so none of the C code which uses the header will break. But if it's compiled
as C++, it will be renamed. This violates some cross-translation-unit type
compatibility rules in C and C++, but the kernel isn't exactly ANSI C. ;)
>Oh well. I think most people who hate C++ got introduced to it through
>MFC, a big, nasty botch.
I like C better than C++, but I like choice even more.
We have a decent free compiler now, so there is no need to have political
objections masquerading as technical objections.
--
#exclude <windows.h>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kaz Kylheku)
Subject: Re: POXIS Semaphores
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:43:33 GMT
On Fri, 19 May 2000 15:36:35 +0100, Antony Holmes
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I'm trying to create named semaphores using the POSIX function sem_open().
>
>Unfortunately whilst being defined in semaphore.h and included in
>libpthread.a each time I use it I get an error returned "Function not
>implemented"!
LinuxThreads does not support process shared semaphores. The function to
open a semaphore by name is not supported.
>Does anyone know where I can get a copy of either the function or a pthread
>library with the correct functionality included?
It doesn't exist, and it's not easy to implement, either.
You will probably have to stick with traditional ``System V'' semaphores
or other IPC mechanisms.
--
#exclude <windows.h>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kaz Kylheku)
Subject: Re: debugging
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:48:38 GMT
On Fri, 19 May 2000 11:09:28 -0500, Aurelie Fonteny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>In user space, it is very easy to write data into files just by including
>the stdio.h library and calling fopen(), fwrite() and fclose().
>But this doesn't work in Linux Kernel, and I've tried to do it with
>printk(KERN_INFO""), but it's not really efficient because I still get the
>line "May 19 08:54:57 milou kernel:" that doesn't match at both ends so, I
>can't a diff after that.
Geez, you are working on Linux. Your biggest dilemma should be deciding which
of the hundred available text munching tools to use to strip the leading date
information. ;)
How about piping the data through
cut -c 30-
to cut from column 30 onward? (You have to determine precisely what column
to cut at to get rid of the log headers, that's just an example).
>So does anyone know about a better way to do that? Is there really no simple
>way to write into a file from the kernel? Is there another way to be able to
You can write to files if you are running in a process context. The problem is
that your driver probably runs in an interrupt context at least some of the
time.
--
#exclude <windows.h>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Date: 19 May 2000 14:50:04 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
brian moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >/opt is for independent packages. But there is a new fsstd coming up.
>>
>> Oh good - we didn't have quite enough standard layouts already...
>
>No, we don't have enough detail and vendors that are anal about
>following the rules.
Forcing vendors to make difficult choices about whether to screw
their existing customers with a change or the new ones if they
don't is not what standards should be about.
>> More like 20 - and they still don't correctly address issues of
>> having local copies AND (perhaps multiple) network-mounted directories
>> of the same thing, or things where the config files should be
>> network-shared but not the binaries or vice-versa.
>
>Why would you local -and- shared copies of the same thing?
The shared copy may not be available all the time, may not
be mounted in the expected place, may be spread over several
remote machines, may be mounted read-only when you want to
install something new. And so on - life isn't simple.
>You may want to look at /usr/share, which is precisely for things that
>can be shared across platforms. (Man pages, docs, pixmaps,
>soundfiles, dictionaries, all sorts of things should be living in
>/usr/share -- I've got a couple hundred meg worth of stuff there)
How resiliant is this when you have different versions of different
systems sharing it?
>See http://www.pathname.com/fhs/
Odd that it is a compressed pdf. Does anyone have netscape and
acrobat configured to read such a combination directly? Maybe
I'll just wait for the next revision.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leslie Mikesell)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Date: 19 May 2000 14:54:20 -0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
brian moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I think what we really need is some number of well-maintained
>> 'master' system images (somewhere between 10 and 100 would
>> suffice, but the number doesn't matter) and some tools
>> to sync up your system to the master without breaking things
>> due to hardware differences.
>That sounds like Debian.
>
>Debian makes the sysadmin's job trivial.
How many different configurations can you get just by making
one choice (KDE workstation, server, router, web-proxy, etc.)?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Fred" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: serial port RTS control ?
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 22:29:00 +0200
Reply-To: "Fred" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I would doubt this. If you were the only master, then there would be
> no need to control RTS at all.
It's true, RTS is not needed since if I connect RxD and TxD together the
dialog works too !
But in this case, the master receive the echo of all the commands sent by
itself...
I think that it's not easy to sort slave's message among echoed characters ?
> Perhaps you are calling the other
> participants slave, bat at the moment, they activate their line
> driver, they are masters on the bus.
Yes but I don't have to manage slave operation !
and they answer only at master's question so if the timing are okay there's
no collision here...
Fred
(France)
------------------------------
From: "Fred" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: serial port RTS control ?
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 22:30:43 +0200
Reply-To: "Fred" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
And what's happen if I use CRTSCTS (hardware flow control) mask in ioctl ?
Fred
(France)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (brian moore)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Date: 19 May 2000 20:39:30 GMT
On 19 May 2000 14:54:20 -0500,
Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> brian moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> I think what we really need is some number of well-maintained
> >> 'master' system images (somewhere between 10 and 100 would
> >> suffice, but the number doesn't matter) and some tools
> >> to sync up your system to the master without breaking things
> >> due to hardware differences.
>
> >That sounds like Debian.
> >
> >Debian makes the sysadmin's job trivial.
>
> How many different configurations can you get just by making
> one choice (KDE workstation, server, router, web-proxy, etc.)?
task-c++-dev - Development in C++
task-c-dev - Development in C
task-chinese-s - Simplified Chinese environment
task-chinese-t - Traditional Chinese environment
task-database-pg - PostgreSQL database
task-debian-devel - Debian package development
task-debug - Debugging of C, C++, Objective C and friends
task-devel-common - Development in various languages
task-dialup - Dialup utilities
task-dialup-isdn - Dialup utilities (ISDN)
task-dns-server - DNS Server
task-fortran - Fortran development environment
task-games - A selection of games
task-german - German-speaking environment
task-gnome-apps - GNOME applications and utilities
task-gnome-desktop - GNOME basic desktop
task-gnome-games - GNOME games
task-gnome-net - GNOME network applications
task-imap - IMAP Server
task-japanese - Japanese-speaking environment
task-laptop - A selection of tools for laptop users
task-newbie-help - New user documentation
task-news-server - USENET News Server
task-objc-dev - Development in Objective C
task-parallel-computing-dev - Packages for development of parallel computing
applications
task-parallel-computing-node - Libraries for parallel computing applications
task-polish - Polish-speaking environment
task-python - Python script development environment
task-python-bundle - Full distribution of Python
task-python-dev - Full Python development environment
task-python-web - Python web application development environment
task-samba - Samba SMB server
task-science - Basic tools for scientific work
task-sgml - SGML and XML authoring and editing
task-sgml-dev - SGML and XML development environment
task-spanish - Spanish environment
task-tcltk - Running Tcl/Tk applications
task-tcltk-dev - Developing Tcl/Tk applications
task-tex - TeX/LaTeX environment
task-x-window-system - X Window System (complete)
task-x-window-system-core - X Window System (core components)
You are free to add your own, of course. The above are merely virtual
packages that include others. For example, task-dns-server:
| Package: task-dns-server
| Version: 1:8.2.2p5-11
| Priority: optional
| Section: net
| Maintainer: Bdale Garbee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| Depends: bind, bind-doc, dnsutils, dlint
| Architecture: all
| Filename:
| dists/unstable/main/binary-i386/net/task-dns-server_8.2.2p5-11.deb
| Size: 11030
| MD5sum: 9a8cd6803f0aefe64bdb3197caa21980
| Description: DNS Server
| Installs the BIND DNS server, and related documentation and utility packages.
| source: bind
| installed-size: 48
Ie, it grabs BIND, the docs for it, dnsutils (things like host, dig and
nslookup) and dlint to check for proper zone file configuration.
Obviously you can combine the above as you see fit. (Ie, you may want
to run an SMB server on your name server, and you'd almost certainly
want to have debugging if you have development [unless you're compiling
and have no intention of fixing bugs in programs].)
As for your list specifically: KDE is not in Debian as it is not
compatible with the GPL. What do you mean by 'server'? Web? Mail?
Usenet? DNS? SMB? 'server' is mighty generic. A 'router' would
need very little except perhaps zebra -- install the base system and
you're done. A web-proxy would need very little except for squid --
"apt-get install squid" seems much more effective than making a 'task'
for a single package.
On the reverse side, there is no "task-web-server" for the simple reason
that -you- get to choose which web server you want. Do you want Apache?
Or Roxen? Or CERN perhaps? Or Apache-ssl? How about modules? Do you
want mod_perl or is it not worth the overhead because your pages are all
static?
Some things are best left to humans to decide or there would be no
choice at all, which is counter to the freedom granted by the FSF,
Linus, the Apache Group and all the others contributing to the library.
--
Brian Moore | Of course vi is God's editor.
Sysadmin, C/Perl Hacker | If He used Emacs, He'd still be waiting
Usenet Vandal | for it to load on the seventh day.
Netscum, Bane of Elves.
------------------------------
From: Nix <$}xinix{[email protected]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Need to find my IP address
Date: 19 May 2000 20:46:23 +0100
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> btw, does anyone use 'info' any more?
Yes.
--
`Q: Why did they deprecate a.out support in linux?
A: Because a nasty coff is bad for your elf.' --- James Simmons
------------------------------
From: "Anthony W. Youngman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 20:20:25 +0100
Reply-To: "Anthony W. Youngman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, eyez
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>quoting <Leslie Mikesell>:
>>I haven't touched Debian since my first experience with dselect in
>>1996 or so. I'm sure it has improved since then but I couldn't
>>deal with their attitude about how much better dpkg/dselect was
>>(when it didn't even work on a lot of systems) compared to rpm.
>>I'd be very surprised if that attitude every goes away to a
>>point where they would share rpm tools with RedHat.
>
>From my experience with debian, dpkg/dselect/apt *IS* better than rpm.
>The biggest problem with rpm's on debian is that the dependency databases
>for rpm as compared to the dpkg/apt ones are completely incompatible.
Also, aiui, rpm is sadly broken compared to dpkg... If a package has a
"required" dependency registered with dpkg, you can be pretty sure that
trying to run the dependent package will fail if the required package
isn't installed. On the other hand it was a devil of a job to install
SuSE *without* installing OSS and ISDN4LINUX because rpm said these
packages were "required" - on a bare-bones system with no sound or isdn
card. And I gather it's rpm's fault, not SuSE - those packages may be
required, therefore they must be marked as required, therefore the
system tries to force you to install them :-(
>however, debian's distributions do currently contain the 'rpm' program as
>well as 'alien', so you can convert an rpm to a .deb... debian has strived
>to make the dpkg system work completely, in such a way that debian's
>children (stormlinux, corel, libranet, et cetera) are all fully compatible
>with debian. Any of these systems could be updated to debian with little
>effort through the apt-system, and That would work reversely. Also, apt
>could check each of the mirror sites for each of these distributions, and
>update packages from all of them just as effortlessly. (Don't argue with me, I
>had a concurrent debian-Woody/StormLinux-Rain system for a while). That's a
>level of consistency that RedHat with it's SuSE/Mandrake/Caldera spawns can't
>compete.
Just one point - SuSE is *NN*OO*TT* the spawn of RedHat (excuse my
screaming). SuSE the distro predates RedHat (iirc it's the spawn of
Slack or, more likely, Yggdrasil) and SuSE the company predates linux
itself (I think they were a minix distributor).
>
>I've had to install some rpm packages on my debian system before, and it's
>not hard to do, but it annoys me just the same that nobody ELSE supports
>any package format but rpm.
>
And as a result of SuSE predating RedHat, SuSE rpms are incompatible
with RedHat ones :-( I wish they'd switch to dpkg, but I bet there would
be incompatibilities with Debian there too - for the same reasons -
maintaining backwards compatibility breaks sidewards compatibility :-(
>>
>> Les Mikesell
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--
Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk
Witches are curious by definition and inquisitive by nature. She moved in. "Let
me through. I'm a nosey person.", she said, employing both elbows.
Maskerade : (c) 1995 Terry Pratchett
------------------------------
From: "Anthony W. Youngman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 20:08:14 +0100
Reply-To: "Anthony W. Youngman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, JEDIDIAH
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>On Thu, 18 May 2000 16:26:02 GMT, Doug Alcorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>Lathi gets out a clue stick.
>>
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH) writes:
>>
>>> On Thu, 18 May 2000 04:49:10 GMT, Mongoose <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> >On Thu, 18 May 2000 01:00:45 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>> So what is the problem with doing this in the KDE desktop?
>>> >>
>>> >>KDE isn't free.
>>> >
>>> > uh what? I don't remember paying for KDE...
>>>
>>> It's base library is "owned" by a corporation.
>>>
>>> A good suggestion might be to replace libqt entirely with a
>>> completely liberated clone. However, it's dubious whether or
>>> not the KDE developers would actually take advantage of such
>>> a thing.
>>
>>First, the Qt library _is_ now free. Trolltech decided to license it
>
> It's 'kinda' free. It's still owned by Trolltech.
So what. By your definition linux isn't free - it's owned by Linus.
Likewise gcc isn't free - it's owned by the FSF.
>
> Should Trolltech get scooped up by alien, it will be free.
>
>[deletia]
>
> The ultimate proof is in the ports: So where are those Be and Mac
> versions?
>
> Contributors are, afterall, the whole point of a Free licence.
>
By your definition, if it's got a Free Licence, then it's not free. It's
only free if it's Public Domain (which means anyone can instantly take
it non-free).
--
Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk
Witches are curious by definition and inquisitive by nature. She moved in. "Let
me through. I'm a nosey person.", she said, employing both elbows.
Maskerade : (c) 1995 Terry Pratchett
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 20:43:05 GMT
On 19 May 2000 14:50:04 -0500, Leslie Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>brian moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[deletia]
>>See http://www.pathname.com/fhs/
>
>Odd that it is a compressed pdf. Does anyone have netscape and
>acrobat configured to read such a combination directly? Maybe
>I'll just wait for the next revision.
Sure... just set up one of the pdf readers as a Netscape helper app.
Still, I can't imagine what they think they need pdf for such that
HTML wouldn't be just as suitable.
--
In what language does 'open' mean 'execute the evil contents of' |||
a document? --Les Mikesell / | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 20:59:54 GMT
On Fri, 19 May 2000 20:08:14 +0100, Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, JEDIDIAH
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>>On Thu, 18 May 2000 16:26:02 GMT, Doug Alcorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>Lathi gets out a clue stick.
>>>
>>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH) writes:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 18 May 2000 04:49:10 GMT, Mongoose <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>> >On Thu, 18 May 2000 01:00:45 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >>> So what is the problem with doing this in the KDE desktop?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>KDE isn't free.
>>>> >
>>>> > uh what? I don't remember paying for KDE...
>>>>
>>>> It's base library is "owned" by a corporation.
>>>>
>>>> A good suggestion might be to replace libqt entirely with a
>>>> completely liberated clone. However, it's dubious whether or
>>>> not the KDE developers would actually take advantage of such
>>>> a thing.
>>>
>>>First, the Qt library _is_ now free. Trolltech decided to license it
>>
>> It's 'kinda' free. It's still owned by Trolltech.
>
>So what. By your definition linux isn't free - it's owned by Linus.
>Likewise gcc isn't free - it's owned by the FSF.
Sort of relicencing it to someone else, neither Linus nor
the FSF have any ownership right over the code that I do
not. I can fork either's work to my hearts desire.
>>
>> Should Trolltech get scooped up by alien, it will be free.
>>
>>[deletia]
>>
>> The ultimate proof is in the ports: So where are those Be and Mac
>> versions?
>>
>> Contributors are, afterall, the whole point of a Free licence.
>>
>By your definition, if it's got a Free Licence, then it's not free. It's
>only free if it's Public Domain (which means anyone can instantly take
>it non-free).
Actually, by my 'right to fork' definition a wide variety of
licences are Free including the X licence, the perl artistic
licence, the BSDL and the L/GPLs.
Also, there's a real issue of perception. A free licence is a
bit of PR as much as anything else. Regardless of the legal
language you think you've crafted, you still have to convince
contributors that it's worth their while.
That's why the GPL was created to begin with.
--
In what language does 'open' mean 'execute the evil contents of' |||
a document? --Les Mikesell / | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (brian moore)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Date: 19 May 2000 21:03:21 GMT
On Fri, 19 May 2000 20:08:14 +0100,
Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, JEDIDIAH
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
> >
> > It's 'kinda' free. It's still owned by Trolltech.
>
> So what. By your definition linux isn't free - it's owned by Linus.
> Likewise gcc isn't free - it's owned by the FSF.
No, you are free to take a kernel tarball, say "bite me linus, I want
the foo feature!" and fork the code. Whether any one would care about
your fork is a different matter.
Likewise, you're free to take the gcc tarball and say "damn, the FSF is
too slow on updating this for modern CPU's, I'll add better optimizing
code and generally enhance it." (And, pretty much the above happened
with egcs when Cygnus got tired of waiting for FSF updates.)
You can NOT do that with Qt. You can supply patchfiles against their
version, but you're not allowed to distribute your new-and-improved
version standalone.
> > Contributors are, afterall, the whole point of a Free licence.
> >
> By your definition, if it's got a Free Licence, then it's not free. It's
> only free if it's Public Domain (which means anyone can instantly take
> it non-free).
No, you haven't read the "Q Public License".
The QPL requires software be free (as in free beer). It also requires
you to submit any software you link with QT to them, even if it is not
distributed and from the wording it seems that they want you to give
them unlimited rights to even your own personal (again, non
distributed) programs that you link to Qt.
In other words, if you do work-for-hire and write an application for
someone, not only do you have to provide them with the source (which is
fair), that would be in violation of the Qt license (ie, your program
wouldn't be zero cost). If you did it for free as a favor for a
friend, you'd still be obliged to surrender your code to Trolltech and
let them redistribute it to others.
--
Brian Moore | Of course vi is God's editor.
Sysadmin, C/Perl Hacker | If He used Emacs, He'd still be waiting
Usenet Vandal | for it to load on the seventh day.
Netscum, Bane of Elves.
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.development.system) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Development-System Digest
******************************
