Hi,
First of all, my name is Adir, not Abir ;-)
Now to clarify:
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Eddie Aronovich wrote:
> 1. The peaceful way that Abir suggested. And I totally support the idea of
> group of that should be called: "Proprietary to Open-Source technicians"
> (not Windows to Linux). Windows is fine. It has billion of users around the
> world. Do not fight them - just show alternatives.
I wasn't talking necessarily about switching OS's, but as you mentioned -
to show alternatives, and to add support for both OS's. There may be some
companies or others, who might want to get that support, but don't know
how (because they use ASP, for instance) - that's where such a technicians
group can help - in the wide meaning of the word. Just show them that with
what they have, they can do more. And if it involves switching to Linux,
that's even better, but this is not what such a group should be all about.
>
> 2a. Activism against the other ideas. This has to do with a lot of hate. The
Activism against other ideas is bad. Unfortunately, some of us really do
it, and actually contradict what GNU and "free" is all about.
>
> 2b. Bad activism (and sometime illegal) against ideas. I include in this
[snipped]
> and it has gone. Please do not do it - This is not what the GNU or Linux is
> about.
Correct. Once again, I know some who do like to do it. Honestly, it makes
me wonder what they like more (Linux or cracking). Such a thing only gives
a bad reputation, and shows a childish behavior (if this is really a way
of someone to show how or why Linux is better).
The "Windows-Linux problem" has been running for a long time, and slowly but
carefully people start to realize that there's a real alternative. It will
take more time until it achieves at least the 50%-50% (users of Linux and
Windows). The subject itself is very touchy. Almost any person whom I talk
with about Linux, and knows something about it, reminds me about "the war"
that exists between the two OS's. By the way, some of my friends who saw
me in the general CS farm of the Technion, wanted to get my attention as I
hadn't seen them. Do you know how they tried to get me? they didn't
call my name, but called me "Micro$oft sucks" :) (as a joke, by the way..
not because they really think so).
Why do I hear all that (and I guess not only me)? because many of those
conversations, actually do look like a war. Some of you are very excited, and
sometimes you take it to different, wrong directions, such as hate and
blacklists. Only adding of support to Linux (Hebrew support, DirectX, and
more. And I don't say that this support doesn't exist!), will make people
thinking. It has to be given by drops, and not by shots. The browsers
problem is only one problem among many, that has to be treated in a wise
way. Wise Way (in my opinion) is:
1) Adding (suggesting) support from a "non compatible software" to Linux
(change html files and other files, so they can match at least one
Linux browser).
2) Showing alternatives, while they are 100% working.
3) If an alternative is welcome, be part of the team that does the blessed
work.
4) Let them be happy, and let them advertise it! I haven't seen any
"chozer betshuva" in this list yet. I've been wondering why.
5) Suggest them "the whole package" (switching completely to Linux),
giving one-to-one alternative solutions to what they need, to what
they need. Bottom line - they will like the alternatives only if it
does a *better* job (and not because of this: "hey, you can do the same
thing also in Linux". That is NOT a reason to switch an OS, in my
opinion).
6) If they are happy with "a different OS" - let them be so (and be happy
for them too. After all, you did succeed to spread the word, and people
did listen to you).
Those are only general ideas ofcourse. The real question is when (the
right timing) and how (attitude) to do it.
Best regards,
Adir.
>
> Eddie
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Adir Abraham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 14:37
> > To: Yotam Medini
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Israeli sites not supporting Linux browsers
> >
> > And how will that help us to achieve anything, if at all? "Black listing"
> > a site will most likely publish it (wait until your list is found in some
> > newspaper..), and will not help with reducing the problem. The opposite
> > is the truth - it may increase hateness, and mind-blocking.
> >
> > Do you think that the webmasters and the owners of the site will care? As
> > long
> > as it brings them 90% of the population (sad, but true), they won't
> > (necessarily) care much about your list.
> >
> > Moreover, you will have to notice this:
> >
> > 1) You will have to prove that for a specific site - ANY browser, from ANY
> > version which exists over there in Linux cannot see the site properly.
> >
> > 2) You will need to update your list whenever there's a change.
> > Nevertheless, when there's a change (to Linux) it can be changed back
> > sometime (into not supporting Linux, intentionally or not) for some
> > reason, vice versa.
> >
> > 3) Vicious owners can sue you for some kind of "hotzaat diba", just
> > because you "black list" them. Nobody said that you wouldn't win (about it
> > not being "hotzaat diba"), but I am not sure that you would want that
> > headache.
> >
> > 4) You won't contribute eliminating the problem. I believe that I have
> > already mentioned that.
> >
> > Instead, you can do the following:
> >
> > 1) Be nice, and politely tell them that their site doesn't support Linux
> > (actually, it's not true. It doesn't support the browers which *you* have
> > *checked*, with your specific software and architecture installed).
> >
> > 2) Suggest to help them to make their site compatible with Linux. If they
> > are not going to care about this, you will have to do that free of charge.
> > Once again - your responsibility. And I am not sure that you would like to
> > do that free of charge.
> >
> > 3) Here is an idea: Create a group of "Windows-to-Linux technicians",
> > who will help in converting (and improving), both for free and for money
> > (you
> > can even earn from it, if you do it the right way). Make this group
> > professional, and don't call them "missioners" or "revolutionists". Just
> > make a team which its purpose is to do that work, and that work only.
> >
> > 4) Don't black-list anybody. Nobody owes you anything and nobody has to
> > satisfy your OS you're working on (take this in a good spirit :).
> >
> > Love the problem.. don't hate it.
> >
> > Just something to think about. :)
> >
> > Adir.
> >
> > On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Yotam Medini wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Let's establish a 'black list' of Israeli sites not supporting
> > > Linux browsers. A specific category (dark-black) could be for sites
> > > whose main category is about computers.
> > >
> > > Let me suggest a candidate:
> > >
> > > www.ksp.co.il
> > >
> > > -- yotam
> > >
> > >
> > > =================================================================
> > > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
> > > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
> > > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > =================================================================
> > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
> > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
> > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> =================================================================
> To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
> the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
> echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
=================================================================
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
