On Thu, 17 Mar 2005, voguemaster wrote:

> > unfortunately, java indeed is a performance hog in various areas - and
> > just by saying "it is not", you're not going to burst anyone's bubble ;)
>
> Benchmarks can be found all over the web, don't take *my* word for it. ;)

i probably forgot to say that benchmarks are generally quite useless for
"general purpose claims".

> > i won't even mention java GUI programs. it could be that you can write a
> > GUI program in java that'll not appear slagish (i've seen some
> > minimalistic java applets that run quite fast) - but looking at the
> > various GUI programs i have met so far, it looks like it is much harder to
> > achieve this with java, then with C++ (or C).
> >
> > sorry - you did not burst "my bubble" just yet :P~~
>
> Well, I happen to work at a place and in a team of programmers
> responsible for a very *heavy* sort of speak system. I'm sorry to tell
> you this again but if we can do image manipulations at run-time and have
> a very robust GUI then I'd say that kind of nullifies your claim.

i think you've got logics twisted here.

you are saying "i have one case where java performs fast and robust".
i am saying "i have seen dozen of cases where java applications were
slugish, while i see that happens in a lower rate with non-java
applications.

i'm sure you can tell the difference.

> yes, Java will never be like optimized C++ but people should try to
> leave their prejudice behind.

i'm not talking about prejudice - i'm talking about what i see all around
me. if you cal it "postjudice" - i'll agree with your claim ;)

> And yes, excellent GUI in Java is hard to get right.

i'm not talking about "an excelent GUI". i'm talking about a responsive
GUI, as opposed to the slugish GUI that usually results with java
applications.

you may blaim the programmers - the fact is that it is much easier to get
a responsive GUI written in C or C++, then it is to get a responsive GUI
written in java. i call it "something is wrong in the kingdom of denmark"
- unless you tell me that java's not meant to write GUIs - a claim to
which i'll quite agree ;)

> True, the GUI in
> Java is easy to code and manipulate even so an inexperienced programmer
> can do it easily, but it won't run well. SWING was designed to be used
> by pros but it will also work with beginners.

i'm not sure what you're trying to say here, my friend...

> I don't have to tell you that MFC for example is far from reaching this
> level. MFC not convincing enough ? How about Qt or GTK+ ? Whichever
> toolkit you'd prefer, if it's based on C/C++, we're talking harder work.

you are confusing java's ease of programming, with the responsivenes of
the resulting GUI. i have no argument with you regarding the fact that
programming _correct_ programs in java is easier then doing the same in
C++ or in C. i'm not talking about correct - i'm talking about
responsiveness.

> And btw, writing good C++ code in comparison to writing good Java code
> is at least an order of magnitude tougher. At the very least it is
> significantly harder.

very true - but this is not related to the argument at hand.

now, if you wish to be useful - tell me how to make the jre avoid
performing boundary checking on array accesses - and you'll make me a
happy man (at least for several minutes).

-- 
guy

"For world domination - press 1,
 or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator." -- nob o. dy

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