On Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 10:46:39AM +0200, Lennert Buytenhek wrote: > On Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 08:24:18PM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote: > > > > > > > [ background: On ARM, SMP synchronisation does need barriers but > > > > > > device > > > > > > synchronisation does not. The question is that given this, > > > > > > whether > > > > > > mb() and friends can be NOPs on ARM or not (i.e. whether mb() is > > > > > > supposed to sync against other CPUs or not, or whether only > > > > > > smp_mb() > > > > > > can be used for this.) ] > > > > > > > > > > Hmmmm... > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > 3. Orders memory accesses and device accesses, but not necessarily > > > > the union of the two -- mb(), rmb(), wmb(). > > > > > > If mb/rmb/wmb are required to order normal memory accesses, that means > > > that the change made in commit 9623b3732d11b0a18d9af3419f680d27ea24b014 > > > to always define mb/rmb/wmb as barrier() on ARM systems was wrong. > > > > This was on UP ARM systems, right? > > No. > > If you look at commit 9623b3732d11b0a18d9af3419f680d27ea24b014, you can > see that it defines mb/rmb/wmb as barrier() on both ARM UP and SMP systems. > The UP part is obviously fine, the SMP part is what is under debate here.
Yep, looks wrong to me. > > Assuming that ARM CPUs respect the usual CPU-self-consistency > > semantics, and given the background that device accesses are ordered, > > then it might well be OK to have mb/rmb/wmb be barrier() on UP ARM > > systems. > > > > Most likely not on SMP ARM systems, however. > > Given the semantics above, mb/rmb/wmb can obviously be just barrier()s > on ARM UP systems.. I don't think anyone ever disagreed about that. Good. > > > Does everybody agree on these semantics, though? At least David > > > seems to think that mb/rmb/wmb aren't required to order normal > > > memory accesses against each other.. > > > > Not on UP. On SMP, ordering is (almost certainly) required. > > 'almost certainly'? That sounds like there is a possibility that it > wouldn't have to? What does this depend on? The underlying memory model of the CPU. For sequentially consistent systems, only compiler barriers are required. There are very few such systems -- MIPS and PA-RISC, if I remember correctly. Performance dictates otherwise. I believe that MIPS is -not- sequentially consistent, but have not yet purchased an architecture reference manual. > At least David and Catalin seem to disagree with the statement > that mb/rmb/wmb should order accesses from different CPUs. And > memory-barriers.txt is pretty vague about this.. mb() needs to do everything that smp_mb() does, ditto for rmb() and wmb(). There really are cases where both I/O and memory accesses need to be ordered, so just providing separate memory ordering and I/O ordering is not enough. Given that ARM device drivers are accessing MMIO locations, which are often slow anyway, how much is ARM really gaining by dropping memory barriers when only I/O accesses need be ordered? Is it measurable? If not, there is no point in adding yet another set of combinatorial choices to the memory-barrier API. Thanx, Paul - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/