(changed subject and decoupling from udmabuf thread)

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 08:59:32AM +0300, Oleksandr Andrushchenko wrote:
> On 04/10/2018 08:26 PM, Dongwon Kim wrote:
> >On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 09:37:53AM +0300, Oleksandr Andrushchenko wrote:
> >>On 04/06/2018 09:57 PM, Dongwon Kim wrote:
> >>>On Fri, Apr 06, 2018 at 03:36:03PM +0300, Oleksandr Andrushchenko wrote:
> >>>>On 04/06/2018 02:57 PM, Gerd Hoffmann wrote:
> >>>>>   Hi,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>I fail to see any common ground for xen-zcopy and udmabuf ...
> >>>>>>Does the above mean you can assume that xen-zcopy and udmabuf
> >>>>>>can co-exist as two different solutions?
> >>>>>Well, udmabuf route isn't fully clear yet, but yes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>See also gvt (intel vgpu), where the hypervisor interface is abstracted
> >>>>>away into a separate kernel modules even though most of the actual vgpu
> >>>>>emulation code is common.
> >>>>Thank you for your input, I'm just trying to figure out
> >>>>which of the three z-copy solutions intersect and how much
> >>>>>>And what about hyper-dmabuf?
> >>>xen z-copy solution is pretty similar fundamentally to hyper_dmabuf
> >>>in terms of these core sharing feature:
> >>>
> >>>1. the sharing process - import prime/dmabuf from the producer -> extract
> >>>underlying pages and get those shared -> return references for shared pages
> >Another thing is danvet was kind of against to the idea of importing existing
> >dmabuf/prime buffer and forward it to the other domain due to synchronization
> >issues. He proposed to make hyper_dmabuf only work as an exporter so that it
> >can have a full control over the buffer. I think we need to talk about this
> >further as well.
> Yes, I saw this. But this limits the use-cases so much.

I agree. Our current approach is a lot more flexible. You can find very
similar feedback in my reply to those review messages. However, I also
understand Daniel's concern as well. I believe we need more dicussion
regarding this matter.

> For instance, running Android as a Guest (which uses ION to allocate
> buffers) means that finally HW composer will import dma-buf into
> the DRM driver. Then, in case of xen-front for example, it needs to be
> shared with the backend (Host side). Of course, we can change user-space
> to make xen-front allocate the buffers (make it exporter), but what we try
> to avoid is to change user-space which in normal world would have remain
> unchanged otherwise.
> So, I do think we have to support this use-case and just have to understand
> the complexity.
> >
> >danvet, can you comment on this topic?
> >
> >>>2. the page sharing mechanism - it uses Xen-grant-table.
> >>>
> >>>And to give you a quick summary of differences as far as I understand
> >>>between two implementations (please correct me if I am wrong, Oleksandr.)
> >>>
> >>>1. xen-zcopy is DRM specific - can import only DRM prime buffer
> >>>while hyper_dmabuf can export any dmabuf regardless of originator
> >>Well, this is true. And at the same time this is just a matter
> >>of extending the API: xen-zcopy is a helper driver designed for
> >>xen-front/back use-case, so this is why it only has DRM PRIME API
> >>>2. xen-zcopy doesn't seem to have dma-buf synchronization between two VMs
> >>>while (as danvet called it as remote dmabuf api sharing) hyper_dmabuf sends
> >>>out synchronization message to the exporting VM for synchronization.
> >>This is true. Again, this is because of the use-cases it covers.
> >>But having synchronization for a generic solution seems to be a good idea.
> >Yeah, understood xen-zcopy works ok with your use case. But I am just curious
> >if it is ok not to have any inter-domain synchronization in this sharing 
> >model.
> The synchronization is done with displif protocol [1]
> >The buffer being shared is technically dma-buf and originator needs to be 
> >able
> >to keep track of it.
> As I am working in DRM terms the tracking is done by the DRM core
> for me for free. (This might be one of the reasons Daniel sees DRM
> based implementation fit very good from code-reuse POV).

yeah but once you have a DRM object (whether it's dmabuf or not) on a remote
domain, it is totally new object and out of sync (correct me if I am wrong)
with original DRM prime, isn't it? How could these two different but based on
same pages be synchronized?

> >
> >>>3. 1-level references - when using grant-table for sharing pages, there 
> >>>will
> >>>be same # of refs (each 8 byte)
> >>To be precise, grant ref is 4 bytes
> >You are right. Thanks for correction.;)
> >
> >>>as # of shared pages, which is passed to
> >>>the userspace to be shared with importing VM in case of xen-zcopy.
> >>The reason for that is that xen-zcopy is a helper driver, e.g.
> >>the grant references come from the display backend [1], which implements
> >>Xen display protocol [2]. So, effectively the backend extracts references
> >>from frontend's requests and passes those to xen-zcopy as an array
> >>of refs.
> >>>  Compared
> >>>to this, hyper_dmabuf does multiple level addressing to generate only one
> >>>reference id that represents all shared pages.
> >>In the protocol [2] only one reference to the gref directory is passed
> >>between VMs
> >>(and the gref directory is a single-linked list of shared pages containing
> >>all
> >>of the grefs of the buffer).
> >ok, good to know. I will look into its implementation in more details but is
> >this gref directory (chained grefs) something that can be used for any 
> >general
> >memory sharing use case or is it jsut for xen-display (in current code base)?
> Not to mislead you: one grant ref is passed via displif protocol,
> but the page it's referencing contains the rest of the grant refs.

I checked displif.h. I like the concept of chaining 2nd level grefs.
As you should have already realized, our multi-level addressing is almost
identical to gref directory except that we defined another level on top to
address multiple 2nd level grefs instead of creating a linked list. And I
see there would be an advantage in terms of memory saving in your method. 

Now I think why it should be remaining as one of displif features. I think
we could expand this to any type of large buffer sharing use-case in Xen
(possibly as an extension to grant-table driver?)

> As to if this can be used for any memory: yes. It is the same for
> sndif and displif Xen protocols, but defined twice as strictly speaking
> sndif and displif are two separate protocols.
> While reviewing your RFC v2 one of the comments I had [2] was that if we
> can start from defining such a generic protocol for hyper-dmabuf.
> It can be a header file, which not only has the description part
> (which then become a part of Documentation/...rst file), but also defines
> all the required constants for requests, responses, defines message formats,
> state diagrams etc. all at one place. Of course this protocol must not be
> Xen specific, but be OS/hypervisor agnostic.
> Having that will trigger a new round of discussion, so we have it all
> designed
> and discussed before we start implementing.
> Besides the protocol we have to design UAPI part as well and make sure
> the hyper-dmabuf is not only accessible from user-space, but there will be
> number
> of kernel-space users as well.
> >
> >>>4. inter VM messaging (hype_dmabuf only) - hyper_dmabuf has inter-vm msg
> >>>communication defined for dmabuf synchronization and private data (meta
> >>>info that Matt Roper mentioned) exchange.
> >>This is true, xen-zcopy has no means for inter VM sync and meta-data,
> >>simply because it doesn't have any code for inter VM exchange in it,
> >>e.g. the inter VM protocol is handled by the backend [1].
> >>>5. driver-to-driver notification (hyper_dmabuf only) - importing VM gets
> >>>notified when newdmabuf is exported from other VM - uevent can be 
> >>>optionally
> >>>generated when this happens.
> >>>
> >>>6. structure - hyper_dmabuf is targetting to provide a generic solution for
> >>>inter-domain dmabuf sharing for most hypervisors, which is why it has two
> >>>layers as mattrope mentioned, front-end that contains standard API and 
> >>>backend
> >>>that is specific to hypervisor.
> >>Again, xen-zcopy is decoupled from inter VM communication
> >>>>>No idea, didn't look at it in detail.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Looks pretty complex from a distant view.  Maybe because it tries to
> >>>>>build a communication framework using dma-bufs instead of a simple
> >>>>>dma-buf passing mechanism.
> >>>we started with simple dma-buf sharing but realized there are many
> >>>things we need to consider in real use-case, so we added communication
> >>>, notification and dma-buf synchronization then re-structured it to
> >>>front-end and back-end (this made things more compicated..) since Xen
> >>>was not our only target. Also, we thought passing the reference for the
> >>>buffer (hyper_dmabuf_id) is not secure so added uvent mechanism later.
> >>>
> >>>>Yes, I am looking at it now, trying to figure out the full story
> >>>>and its implementation. BTW, Intel guys were about to share some
> >>>>test application for hyper-dmabuf, maybe I have missed one.
> >>>>It could probably better explain the use-cases and the complexity
> >>>>they have in hyper-dmabuf.
> >>>One example is actually in github. If you want take a look at it, please
> >>>visit:
> >>>
> >>>https://github.com/downor/linux_hyper_dmabuf_test/tree/xen/simple_export
> >>Thank you, I'll have a look
> >>>>>Like xen-zcopy it seems to depend on the idea that the hypervisor
> >>>>>manages all memory it is easy for guests to share pages with the help of
> >>>>>the hypervisor.
> >>>>So, for xen-zcopy we were not trying to make it generic,
> >>>>it just solves display (dumb) zero-copying use-cases for Xen.
> >>>>We implemented it as a DRM helper driver because we can't see any
> >>>>other use-cases as of now.
> >>>>For example, we also have Xen para-virtualized sound driver, but
> >>>>its buffer memory usage is not comparable to what display wants
> >>>>and it works somewhat differently (e.g. there is no "frame done"
> >>>>event, so one can't tell when the sound buffer can be "flipped").
> >>>>At the same time, we do not use virtio-gpu, so this could probably
> >>>>be one more candidate for shared dma-bufs some day.
> >>>>>   Which simply isn't the case on kvm.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>hyper-dmabuf and xen-zcopy could maybe share code, or hyper-dmabuf build
> >>>>>on top of xen-zcopy.
> >>>>Hm, I can imagine that: xen-zcopy could be a library code for hyper-dmabuf
> >>>>in terms of implementing all that page sharing fun in multiple directions,
> >>>>e.g. Host->Guest, Guest->Host, Guest<->Guest.
> >>>>But I'll let Matt and Dongwon to comment on that.
> >>>I think we can definitely collaborate. Especially, maybe we are using some
> >>>outdated sharing mechanism/grant-table mechanism in our Xen backend (thanks
> >>>for bringing that up Oleksandr). However, the question is once we 
> >>>collaborate
> >>>somehow, can xen-zcopy's usecase use the standard API that hyper_dmabuf
> >>>provides? I don't think we need different IOCTLs that do the same in the 
> >>>final
> >>>solution.
> >>>
> >>If you think of xen-zcopy as a library (which implements Xen
> >>grant references mangling) and DRM PRIME wrapper on top of that
> >>library, we can probably define proper API for that library,
> >>so both xen-zcopy and hyper-dmabuf can use it. What is more, I am
> >>about to start upstreaming Xen para-virtualized sound device driver soon,
> >>which also uses similar code and gref passing mechanism [3].
> >>(Actually, I was about to upstream drm/xen-front, drm/xen-zcopy and
> >>snd/xen-front and then propose a Xen helper library for sharing big buffers,
> >>so common code of the above drivers can use the same code w/o code
> >>duplication)
> >I think it is possible to use your functions for memory sharing part in
> >hyper_dmabuf's backend (this 'backend' means the layer that does page sharing
> >and inter-vm communication with xen-specific way.), so why don't we work on
> >"Xen helper library for sharing big buffers" first while we continue our
> >discussion on the common API layer that can cover any dmabuf sharing cases.
> >
> Well, I would love we reuse the code that I have, but I also
> understand that it was limited by my use-cases. So, I do not
> insist we have to ;)
> If we start designing and discussing hyper-dmabuf protocol we of course
> can work on this helper library in parallel.
> >>Thank you,
> >>Oleksandr
> >>
> >>P.S. All, is it a good idea to move this out of udmabuf thread into a
> >>dedicated one?
> >Either way is fine with me.
> So, if you can start designing the protocol we may have a dedicated mail
> thread for that. I will try to help with the protocol as much as I can
Sure thanks. We can talk about it. just FYI, I have prepared a application
note that contains definition of hyper_dmabuf messages included in RFC v2
patch. That would be a great starting point. It will be great if you can
review it.
> >>>>>cheers,
> >>>>>   Gerd
> >>>>>
> >>>>Thank you,
> >>>>Oleksandr
> >>>>
> >>>>P.S. Sorry for making your original mail thread to discuss things much
> >>>>broader than your RFC...
> >>>>
> >>[1] https://github.com/xen-troops/displ_be
> >>[2] 
> >>https://elixir.bootlin.com/linux/v4.16-rc7/source/include/xen/interface/io/displif.h#L484
> >>[3] 
> >>https://elixir.bootlin.com/linux/v4.16-rc7/source/include/xen/interface/io/sndif.h
> >>
> [1] 
> https://elixir.bootlin.com/linux/v4.16-rc7/source/include/xen/interface/io/displif.h
> [2]
> https://lists.xenproject.org/archives/html/xen-devel/2018-04/msg00685.html

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