Good good now we are getting somewhere, Jason I found your original post quite negative and maybe my reply reflected that. We can physically beat each other at the meeting. Its good to see you have refined your requests. A demo of "gui apps" is a bity vague, tyour longer post more helpful. Further reponses below:
> I apologise in advance for the long post all but please bear with me as > I could see no way to shorten it AND say what I wanted to say..... > > Nick, you seem so negative when I suggest these ideas to make CLUG more > Newbie friendly, why is this?? You make me feel as though I need to > defend my position when there is no position to defend. It's like you're > on one side with the command liners and I'm on the GUI side and we are > at war. I am not at war and I think both parties can peacefull co-exist. > In fact, I am aware of the power and necessity of the command line but I > also know that until newbies can do the most basic things on their > system they have little use for it. Yes, they can do these things from > the CLI but if they can use a GUI based utility, why not?? Besides, many > in the Windows world imagine Linux as a big, hairy scary OS with none of > the features of their beloved Windows. That is a myth we need to debunk > and now. > > Chris S., no offense but you have stated you don't run Windows and that > you haven't in years. As such how would you know what kind of user > experience Windows converts are wanting from Linux?? How can we talk up > the strengths of Linux without specifically addressing the weaknesses of > competing OS's?? I for one would like to hear more from Mahesh. As our > resident MCSE, he KNOWS (perhaps better than any of us) what things in > Linux are superior to Windows, let's have him do a talk on this if he > will consent. Knowlege is power, let's educate people. > > > To answer Nick's question, some meeting ideas.... > > > 1. How about a demo of some of the GUI configuration utilities provided > by the major distro's and what they are actually configuring. For > example, in Mandrake you have a graphical configurator for LILO but the > lilo.conf file can also be edited by hand, either in an editor or in a > console/from the command line. The fact that most configuration settings > in Linux are determined by simple, editable text files is something > that makes Linux so elegant, indeed all Unices. It amazes me how rapt > some newbies are when, for example, they screw up the configuration of > an app and I have them simply delete the config file and when they > reopen the app the file is recreated and all default settings are > returned to them. The fact that there is no registry to worry about, ala > Winblows is a benefit not to be overlooked. There are many graphical > configuration utilites available with Linux nowadays, from linuconfig to > all the rest. How to use those and what they are actually > changing/configuring would be a great demo/discussion IMHO. > Yes, but the problem with gui config apps is distro specificity, ie the way to config an ethernet card via the gui will vary between redhat and mandrake and debian etc. Still, this is a worthy approach, but IMHO it is dangerous to play until you know what the options do. Can you lead a session on that Jason? > 2. A demo of any of the THOUSANDS of GUI apps that people have never > even heard of, how to install them, configure them, satisfy > dependencies, use Kpackage, Mandrake Software Manager, RedCarpet etc > (XWC FM has it's own RPM installer, very nice). Remember, you may know > what GUI apps do what in Linux but many newbies don't so just because > there IS an app that does the same things as their favorite Windows app > doesn't mean they know it exits, what it's called, or how to install and > configure it. Why make newbies reinvent the wheel?? Of course they could > go through the RPM's on their CD/hard drive one by one, querying them to > see what they do, or they could search Google to try and find out if an > app exists for Linux to do what they want, or their friendly > neighbourhood LUG (us in this case Nick) could demo it for them!! > Sure, perhaps we could make a list of those "windows equivalents" that people have been unable to find, and present a session at each meeting. "How to play DVD's/mp3's/doom/castle wofenstein/graphics editiing, etc. Maybe a web based request page. > I can't remember how many times I've discovered a great (sometimes > obscure) Linux app that I thought "now that is cool". For example, Kwave > and Gnoise wave editors. I had a friend who needed a song edited and cut > down and burned to a CD for him (he is using it to pose to in a > bodybuilding competition). I ripped the song from an original CD to a > wave file with ripperX, and edited it in Gnoise and then burned it using > K3B - all GUI apps. It honestly sounded like a professional edit when I > was done, I couldn't even tell where the edits were. These kinds of > stories (and I'm sure you all have many others) impress newbies and make > great demo's. good, you can demo it for us. I agree that its cool to just find a new app on your hard drive or cd or on the net, install it, don't even need to reboot and you're there. > > You asked what newbies want to see more of, as newbies, how would they > know?? They don't even know the terms we use in the Linux world many times. > > 3. How about a discussion of Linux/Unix terminology and what those terms > mean. This sounds trivial but coming from a Windows world, much about > Linux sounds like Greek to many. Or is that just sounds "Geek"?? I guess Carl's talk will have some of that . > > 4. How about comparing/discussing the benefits of Linux vs. Windows and > how that actually benefits end users, such as... > Yes, perhaps more of an "intro" subject for people not yet committed? I think at the next installfest we should have some more seminar like intros, and include as part of our advertising something like: "11.00 am hear Jason Greenwood talk on why you should change to linux, 1 pm hear Joe Bloggs tell you how to save money in your small business using linux mail & web services instead of NT." > Comparing major filesystems (what a filesystem is etc.), specifically > journalised vs. nonjournalised and the fact that you don't need to > defrag a journalised one ( a major, frequently mandatory necessity on a > FAT 32 drive, and a time consuming one with the new 80+ GB drives coming > out). > yes good > Discussing the benefits of package managers, indeed software packages in > general. For example, how many times have you gone to uninstall a > Windows app and it either won't let you because something is missing it > needs to uninstall the app or it states that all components could not be > removed and you must manually remove them when you may not even know all > what the app installed or where in the first place??? With windows apps, > crap can get scattered all over the place. With RPM's you can see the > file list and where EVERYTHING is going and since the uninstall is > simply the install script in reverse you can be sure that when you > uninstall the program, it definitely is gone from you system. People > never quite understand why their Windows system just seems to slow down > over time and become unusable without a reinstall, we need to tell them > why and how they can avoid that by using Linux. Remember, many that come > to our meetings may not even run Linux yet, but they may want to if we > show its appeal. > package management is a very hot topic and promotes real discussion - apt vs rpm vs tar mainly (thats just within unix, put windows in there too and its an even bigger holy war). But very worthy of discussion. > 5. How about connecting to the net and finding/installing software from > start to finish. Let's either use a browser to locate an RPM through one > of the RPM search sites, download it and install it or show how to use a > GUI ftp program (like gFTP) to connect to a mirror and get some apps. > Heck, lets upgrade a kernel (a scary thought till you've seen it done)!! > I think kernel upgrade is a great topic. Also the searching and downloading of packages. Very good idea. Tie it in with the package management referred to above. > 6. How about a desktop/WM comparo, features, look, configuration, etc.?? > This shows that with Linux there is CHOICE in the desktop environment, > unlike Windows. > Yes, nice, but it can be seen easily by going onto the web and looking at the huge number of wm screenshots out there... > 7. How about a discussion of how to set up message filters in Mozilla or > some of the other nifty features of some of the major desktop apps. > Mail message sorting is a great topic too. We could also show procmail etc. > I can think of many more but I would like the newbies on this list to > tell us what they think of this discussion and give their input..... > > Perhaps we need to have 2 CLUG meetings, one for geeks/more experienced > users one more entertaining for the newbies or people wanting to take > their first Linux steps. My other idea is to split CLUG meetings in > half. Make the first half for desktop users, then after the break get > into more complex stuff and if people want to leave at the break then > they have the option. If we don't do something I fear we will lose > attendees at the meetings. > > My whole point is that we can make our meetings *entertaining* if we > want to. They seem very staid at times. I don't think that anyone could > argue that talks about the command line are entertaining. I would like > input as to whether entertainment value matters to any on this list > because it does to me. > We can dicuss more at the next meeting. With the list above, we have a program to take us well into the new year. > Regards, > > > Jason Greenwood Nick
