On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 10:10:50PM -0500, Glenn Maynard wrote: > On Thu, Feb 21, 2002 at 11:38:40PM +0100, Radovan Garabik wrote: > > - we need quick and easy and more or less standartized way > > to type less often used, but needed characters (prime > > example: Euro sign). The actual layout of these extra characters > > is dependant on primary layout - e.g. in English layout, > > <extra key>+e gives EURO, but in Russian cyrillic layout > > <extra key>+e could give CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER UKRAINIAN IE > > and <extra key>+i would produce CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER BYELORUSSIAN-UKRAINIAN I > > (that was just an example - but a valid one. I personally would benefit > > from such a layout). > > This <extra key> is conveniently served by AltGr. > > Consistency is nice; perhaps prefer key+4 for currency symbols? I'm
perhaps, but... On standard Slovak (and Czech, and certainly many other) layout (the one that is the same as on typewritters, the one that is the only one possibility in MS Windows, the one that programmers (myself included) hate because they cannot type on it, but our typical dumb office user loves, and the ONLY one layout that remained in Xfree86 >=4.1 DAMN!), there are national letters on the upper row, instead of numbers, and with Shift you get numbers. So the obvious way for these layouts is to have AltGr+4 to yield dollar sign (otherwise, you cannot type $ on Czech/Slovak keyboard!) so AltGr+number would give !@#$%^&*(), and generally, AltGr+anything gives corresponding symbol in defalut USA English layout. So when you press <;> on slovak layout, you get LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH CIRCUMFLEX, but AltGr+<;> would give you SEMICOLON. And vice versa, on Slovak programmer keyboard (the one I am using, and which I extensively modified), pressing <;> gives you SEMICOLON, but pressing AltGr+<;> gives LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH CIRCUMFLEX. Most keyboards here have both labels on keys, so accessing the alternative set with AltGr seems reasonable - and you have now a meaning for Shift+AltGr+something too :-) For Euro sign, many newer keyboards have already Euro printed on E key, so AltGr+E is the obvious way. > not suggesting that key combinations not be overloaded--that's the > entire point of switching languages--just that there be consistency, > like putting currency symbols on the same key whenever possible. (Of > course, some people will want to enter both a local currency symbol and > the euro symbol; I'm not sure which should take precedence.) > > > - we need quick and easy and more or less standartized way to switch > > keyboard layouts. This is especially important when you want to switch > > back to English USA layout (let's have this as a default) from some > > other. Typing "setxkbmap" can be very difficult on cyrillic keyboard :-) > > Console uses (by convention) Pause to do this. > > X often uses (again, by convention) LShift+Rshift. > > Pause is quite away from the reach, LShift+Rshift is rather nice and > > ergonomic, but I am not sure if linux console driver can do this. > > (It should be fixed if not). > > There is also known Alt+Shift combination, used by certain proprietary > > OS'es > > 2K uses alt-shift by default; is there anything wrong with this? (If it's > restricted to AltGr-shift, it won't conflict with alt-shift sequences, > which are also useful. It's not added confusion, since Alt and AltGr are > already being overloaded (here) as completely different keys. > > All else equal, comply with existing practice. No point in being different > for the sake of being different. > > (It doesn't hurt to supply multiple interfaces, such as both > LShift+RShift and AltGr-shift. Obviously, there are a lot of people > accustomed to X's way, too.) And I got an idea: for user with multiple layouts, map LShift+RShift to move to next layout, and LShift+Alt to move to previous layout. If you have only 2 layouts (most users probably, english+national), you do not see the difference. > > One thought: it might, in theory, be useful to shift when using AltGr > "composition". In practice, I don't think it's a good idea to have a > keyboard layout that makes me press "alt-shift-p" very often--better off > avoiding shifts for those completely. see above about slovak keyboards. > > > - For compose key, I got the impression from reading keymaps that RWin is > > often used. I propose to use Menu key. The problem is that currently > > many window managers are using this key to invoke popup menu. Well... > > That is open for discussion. > > Putty uses Menu for compose, but it doesn't have any context menu. So there is even a precedence. Nice :-) > > > We could put compose on some unused key, such as PrintScreen or Pause - > > but it is unusual and out of reach. > > But that's occasionally (validly) used. (And, agreed, it's too far > away.) > > > for 101-key keyboards: > > - on console, Alt is Meta > > - On X, ugh... I know this is difficult. Ideas anyone? > > - AltGr is still our <extra key>. > > - we have problems with compose. We could use RCtrl, but that would > > probably interfere with its usage as Control. Nice way would be > > to use AltGr+RCtrl for compose, but I am afraid neither X nor > > console allows it. Or distinguish between solitary RCtrl press and > > Ctrl+something. > > Alt+AltGr? I don't think LCtrl should be different from RCtrl. > (Distinguishing alts is OK; it's been done for a while. Distinguishing > Ctrl keys would be something very new--avoid it unless it's really > needed.) Could be Alt+AltGr. But the combination AltGr+RCtrl has the advantage of being to the right side of the keyboard, where we have Menu key for 104-key keyboards, and can be easily extended to cover 84-key keyboards. > > > for keyboards that have only one of Shift, Alt, Ctrl: > > Tough. You cannot have everything. But the basic functionality > > is there. > > "Tough" is never an acceptable answer. > > If there are actually PC keyboards without these, they should still be > thought of. They can't have everything, but don't dismiss it. > > If there aren't, then there's no point wasting time on them. I've never > seen one. I did, and used, but not on anything better than 286 :-) But I did work on VT100 terminals, but they have their own logic for processing keypresses so we better not get into this :-) For 84-key keyboards, I suggest following: Alt key is mapped as Meta. Maybe we can map it as Alt under X, it is a question of what is more needed (user choice, probably) Use Alt+Ctrl+Fn to switch consoles (also Alt+Fn on console) Use Alt+Ctrl as Compose - if it does not conflict with console switching. It is probably impossible with current status of console and X input. So we have to map Compose probably on some other key - PrintScreen maybe? Use Alt+Shift as layout switching combination. > > > sci-fi ideas (not to be implemented anytime soon): > > - timeout for key combination. For example, in certain layout, pressing cx > > keys in succession with less then 1 second delay between c and > > x would yield LATIN SMALL LETTER C WITH CIRCUMFLEX. > > Pressing them with more than 1 second delay would yield two > > characters, c and x. > > I detest time-delay interfaces. Windows in "one-click" mode--hover the > mouse to select a file; Mac "click and hold a link to bookmark"--it's > extremely frustrating to break flow to suit an interface. For compose, > it's even worse--I'm breaking my typing. it is not for compose - it is for fast and unobtrusive esperanto typing :-). Really, that would not be bad. Anyway, having the possibility to specify timeout for certain combinations would not hurt (you would not use it on most layouts, anyway). Could be also used for phonetic cyrillic keyboard - for ideas, again see yudit. It has the best esperanto and phonetic cyrillic input I have ever seen. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- | Radovan Garabik http://melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/~garabik/ | | __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk | ----------------------------------------------------------- Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus. Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread! -- Linux-UTF8: i18n of Linux on all levels Archive: http://mail.nl.linux.org/linux-utf8/
