tom.schreck 's article sounds
awfully like a marketing response memo directly from Redmond.
Bottom line - CF is getting the job done and giving professionals the tools
to create the backbone of a new web with Flex.
It's time the IT professionals try to convince the stuffed shirts and bean
counters (and I happen to be one - bean-counter that is ...) that maybe MS is
not the "light at the end of the tunnel". Sometimes when you see the light
you also hear a train whistle!!!!!!!!!!!
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 4:11
PM
Subject: Re: [DFW CFUG] Recent ColdFusion
New Updated
Hi All,
My company is moving to .net and I don't like
it, sure .net has some cool built in components like the datagrid etc. But I
can create all those components in CF if I wanted too. Matter fact I recreated
the datagrid based off or red ballons labs datagrid, you can sort, add, update
and delete and even generate an excel.
With Flex, Apollo, Acrobat, me
personally I'm going to stick with CF.
Thanks
Sophek
On 10/27/06, John
Ivanoff < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
I
agree this doesn't look good. But what is coming out of max? how
easy
will it be to get an Apollo app to talk to cf or a .net app?
I'm
interested in what Apollo is going to do to enterprise stuff.
not to
get into politics...
did any body talk about Rush Limbaugh until the
other day?
I don't know if this person is trying to get more hits on the
web site
or what. I find it interesting he talks about cf and how
>
> tie-ins with
> > Macromedia's (now
Adobe's) other properties ( e.g.
> > Flex).
and
asp.net doesn't tie into
anything?
and the job market thing. do I want to work on a ford or a
bmw? I sure
there are more jobs for a ford mechanic because there are
more fords
and maybe they break down more often.
or fix PC or
macs?
don't some people still program in cobol?
anyway it is a
shame that people can go on and on about things they no
nothing about.
just look at me.
oh well, time to go home.
john
On
10/27/06, Joe Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I'm with Ryan, I don't like this article at all. I believe he
uses
> faulty logic to draw his conclusions - arguments based on
false
> premises, invalid inferences, yada yada...
> Some people
will write anything!
>
> Thanks,
> Joe
Kelly
>
> On 10/27/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I've
worked with CF for 10 years now, and I've been working with C# for the
> > past year and a half. Some reasons why beginners
choose ColdFusion is
> > because of the quick learning
curve. You can get up and running and
> > productive
relatively fast with ColdFusion. However, the market has
>
> changed. The argument that you can be more productive faster
with
> > ColdFusion then ASP may have held water when ASP was first
introduced (pre
> > .net). But I do not think that
argument is valid any longer. .net offers
> > the
developer a multitude of options that are just not available with
CF.
> >
> >
> >
> > I am a diehard CF
fan, but I'm equally impressed with C# and VisualStudio
> >
2005. Looking at the job boards will quickly tell you where
employers are
> > (at least in the DFW area). A recent
look at texas.computerjobs.com had
>
> 120 C# job openings compared to 4 for ColdFusion. Granted,
C# listed jobs
> > for both web and windows
development. I think 120 opening to 4 speaks
> >
volumes.
> >
> >
> >
> > I wonder how CF
would do in the market if Adobe would give it away?
> >
>
>
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
>
>
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of
> > Ryan Everhart
> > Sent:
Friday, October 27, 2006 12:20 PM
> > To: Dallas/Fort
Worth ColdFusion User Group Mailing List
> > Subject:
Re: [DFW CFUG] Recent ColdFusion New Updated
> >
>
>
> >
> >
> > Wow... I am not a fan of that
article at all. I remember reading plenty of
> >
articles where CF was recommend over ASP and PHP as a language for
>
> beginners.
> >
> >
> > On 10/27/06, Clement
Cervenka <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
>
>
> > Yesterday afternoon, while reading
my SitePoint
> > Tech Times #151 - New Browser Wars /
State of
> > ColdFusion, I throught that you will might
find
> > this article very interesting. Sorry, that
the
> > charts didn't copy-over. If asked, I will
email
> > this entire issue to you, just post
email.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
>
> Joe Cervenka
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> >
> > The State of ColdFusion
>
>
> > In issue 145 of the Tech Times, I offered some
advice
> > on which web technologies beginners should
invest time
> > in learning. Ben Forta, the Senior
Technical
> > Evangelist at Adobe, felt I misrepresented
ColdFusion
> > when I described it as "relatively
stagnant." Having
> > done some homework, I've now
changed my thinking a
> > little.
> >
>
> First, here's Forta's objection:
> >
>
> You are correct about the gentle learning curve, but
> > can you clarify "relatively stagnant"? Just to
be
> > clear, the Webster definition of stagnant is
"not
> > advancing or developing". ColdFusion was
first
> > released in 1995, ColdFusion MX 7 was released
in
> > 2005, 7.0.1 later that same year, and 7.0.2 in
June of
> > 2006. In addition, the ColdFusion team is
hard at work
> > on the 8th major version of ColdFusion
(currently
> > codenamed "Scorpio"), to be released in
2007.
> > Obviously, we are both advancing and
developing
> > ColdFusion, and so the term "stagnant" is
utterly
> > inappropriate. As such, I must request that
you update
> > and correct your statement.
>
>
> > Forta goes on to point out that ColdFusion sits
atop a
> > Java foundation, and as such benefits from
the full
> > power and flexibility of that platform. My
thinking
> > here is that to take advantage of the Java
platform
> > beyond what ColdFusion exposes directly,
you need to
> > learn Java, which makes it a moot point
in a
> > discussion of what a beginner should learn
first.
> >
> > Getting back to Forta's main
point, there is, of
> > course, no arguing with
semantics. If the measure of
> > health for a
server-side platform is the frequency of
> > releases,
then ColdFusion has life in it yet. But even
> > when
considering this meaningless metric, compared to
>
> the release schedules of competing platforms like
Ruby
> > on Rails, PHP, or the dazzling array of Java
web
> > application frameworks, ColdFusion comes off
looking,
> > well, "relatively stagnant."
>
>
> > How else can we measure the health of a
platform?
> > Well, one way is to look at book sales
(something we
> > do at lot at SitePoint). O'Reilly
showed the results
> > of the past three years of book
sales at OSCON 2006.
> > ColdFusion didn't even make
the graph, but when asked,
> > Tim O'Reilly replied:
"ColdFusion would be showing as
> > a flatline at the
bottom if we were to graph it." Of
> > course, a
platform might not need books if it were
> > especially
well-documented, and perhaps that's the
> > case with
ColdFusion. Or perhaps it's just that
> > ColdFusion
isn't evolving rapidly enough for people to
> > need new
books written about it.
> >
> > Perhaps the
way to measure a platform's health is to
> > look at the
job market surrounding it. I've seen a
> > smattering of
reports that the ColdFusion job market
> > has perked up
recently, so let's take a look. When
> > measured
against Ruby jobs, ColdFusion looks like a
> > solid
enough choice for now.
> >
> > Note that the
numbers for "ColdFusion" and for "Cold
> > Fusion" are
roughly equal, so you can effectively
> > double the
ColdFusion numbers if you don't mind
> > working for a
company that can't spell.
> >
> > When you
throw in other more established platforms
> > like PHP
and ASP.NET, it's clear
that ColdFusion isn't
> > the best choice if you're
playing the numbers for a
> > new career.
>
>
> > Even if you double up the ColdFusion line on
this
> > graph, it's still only about 2/3 the size of
the PHP
> > job market, while ASP.NET and Java (not shown because
>
> it overwhelms the others) are even better choices.
>
>
> > But no, I wasn't talking about any of these
forms of
> > stangancy. Rather, my description of
ColdFusion was
> > based on an impression that the
platform's development
> > had slowed to the point that
it was unable to respond
> > to the changing needs of
real-world web developers in
> > the same way as its
aforementioned competitors. Even
> > in major releases
like ColdFusion MX 7, changes to the
> > platform seemed
to consist mainly of tacked-on
> > features of interest
to a small minority of developers
> > (e.g. integrated
reporting) or tie-ins with
> > Macromedia's (now
Adobe's) other properties (e.g.
> > Flex).
> >
> > Based on Forta's message, however, I thought it
best
> > to revisit that premise. I perused a number
of
> > ColdFusion blogs, read a ColdFusion developer
journal,
> > and spoke with some active members of the
ColdFusion
> > community. And I have to say, on some
points I was
> > pleasantly surprised.
>
>
> > One trend I observed on ColdFusion-related
blogs
> > recently was a spate of ColdFusion 8
wishlists. Dave
> > Carabetta published a particularly
comprehensive one.
> > These lists give a pretty good
feel for where
> > ColdFusion's power users hope the
platform is headed.
> > Certain items are worrisome:
> >
> > Eleven years in and ColdFusion doesn't
have anything
> > built-in to it to really work with
images on any sort
> > of useful level.
>
>
> > ColdFusion needs a professional IDE. I have
been
> > working with Flex 2 lately, and it's
downright
> > appalling to see the level of professional
polish on
> > the Flex Builder IDE versus the CFEclipse
IDE.
> >
> > Something that's not on these
lists that I expected to
> > see, however, is a more
powerful application
> > framework. This seems to be one
area where the
> > ColdFusion community has really taken
charge: Fusebox,
> > Model-Glue, Reactor, ColdSpring,
Unity, and many other
> > projects exist as the
foundation for different
> > approaches to building
ColdFusion applications.
> >
> > Next I sat
down with the Summer 2006 edition of Fusion
>
> Authority, a free copy of which serendipitously landed
> > on my desk a few weeks ago. First, let me say
that
> > this is a top notch publication, with just the
right
> > mixture of big names and enthusiastic upstarts
writing
> > timely and practical articles.
>
>
> > Refreshing my knowledge of ColdFusion code
through the
> > pages of the journal, I gained a renewed
appreciation
> > for the "hide the hard stuff" approach
that's
> > exemplified by the platform. If you're the
kind of
> > person who just wants to get the job done
without
> > getting drawn into the technical details,
ColdFusion
> > may be uniquely suited to your style.
> >
> > An article by Kay Smoljak, who I met
at Web Directions
> > South last month, attracted my
attention, however. In
> > "An Honest Look at Integrated
Reporting", she
> > describes the problems she had
making real-world use
> > of one of the flagship new
features in ColdFusion MX
> > 7. The severity of the
bugs she describes are frankly
> > shocking, and
although it sounds like Adobe has been
> > responsive
to her bug reports, correcting many of the
> > issues in
the recent 7.0.2 release, one has to wonder
> > a) how
Adobe could release a flagship new feature that
> > was
so fundamentally flawed, and b) how nobody but Kay
>
> Smoljak seems to have noticed.
> >
>
> In my mind, this signals a disconnect between the
core
> > development of ColdFusion and the real-world
needs of
> > its user base. The reason there wasn't
public outcry
> > as a result of the bugs in the
integrated reporting
> > features of ColdFusion MX 7 is
because few people
> > bothered to use the feature. When
Macromedia/Adobe
> > spends its time building integrated
reporting that
> > nobody uses instead of fundamentally
useful features
> > like dynamic image generation, there
is something very
> > wrong.
> >
>
> The good news is that Adobe has announced that
>
> ColdFusion 8 will have dynamic image generation
built
> > in. Nevertheless, I had to ask Kay Smoljak
what she
> > thought of all this.
> >
>
> I was actually a ColdFusion developer long before I
>
> was anything else, and really my impression of
>
> ColdFusion as a whole is pretty positive. [...]
Don't
> > get me wrong - ColdFusion integrated reporting
is a
> > steaming pile of turds. But I'm still a fan of
the
> > platform. Perhaps they don't give the right
impression
> > to the wider community of developers, but
there is a
> > lot of stuff happening. [...]
>
>
> > I have some ideas about the type of developer
that is
> > attracted to ColdFusion, which I think
contributes to
> > the "stagnant impression" - they tend
to be "get the
> > job done and move on to the next
target" type people
> > rather than coding enthusiasts
- they're just not
> > vocal like Ruby On Rails, PHP and
.NET fanatics.
> >
> > ...which is all pretty
reasonable, as far as it goes.
> >
> > The
question I keep coming back to is this: what
> > exactly
are you paying for when you choose to develop
> > for
ColdFusion? Lest we forget, Adobe's ColdFusion
>
> server costs a pretty penny to license, and that's
>
> money that your employer won't be putting into
server
> > hardware, developer tools, or, ultimately,
your
> > pocket. Just what is it that you're getting in
return?
> > It isn't quicker bug fixes, it isn't a
larger job
> > market, it's not a richer feature set,
and it's not
> > rock-solid reliability. It might be
timely support,
> > but other platforms offer that too,
and without the
> > up-front costs.
>
>
> > In the end, the only solid reason I know of
for
> > choosing ColdFusion today is if you simply
prefer its
> > way of doing things. But, when we compare
ColdFusion
> > to competing platforms, I do honestly
believe that the
> > core development of ColdFusion has
been stagnant for
> > some time. It may be that this is
all about to change
> > with the release of ColdFusion 8
next year and, thanks
> > to Adobe Labs, we should be
able to tell long before
> > this new version hits the
streets. But based on where
> > the platform is today, I
must stand firm in my
> > recommendation that newcomers
to web development look
> > elsewhere, at least for now.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
>
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>
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> >
>
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> --
> > Ryan Everhart
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Blogging @ http://ev.instantspot.com/blog/
> > _______________________________________________
>
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