Norm you smoking crack again.... you state things, but only give us either a 10th of the story or none at all.. and some of what you posted in your initial post were simply half truths... you really need to change your meds...
I am going back to work.... this is just too absurd... CT... your refinery doing okay... ? Steve... am still up for adoption.. though, the cat is protesting... everone else... captian tolley's creeping crack cure is da bomb.... worth every single centavo of the $15 it costs... go sailing..its good for what ails ya!!! 'bella aboard something that floats... someplace it snows.. On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Norm of Bandersnatch < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ahoy CT and all, > > > I'm confused. > > I was of the understanding that the police were paid from tax money. There > is no personal income tax in Florida, the major sources of government > revenue here are sales tax and property tax. > > If I am mistaken about this please let me know. > > Your belief that I implied the money I spoke of was illicit illustrates > your viewpoint, not mine. > > > I would also like to hear more about the "risk" water cops are subject to > over and above the normal water borne risks we all have to deal with. I > can't recall any such reported on the news. Pirates aside, boat people > generally seem to be a gentle sort of folk. > > > > As for "verbal attacks". > > Like most of my email on the List, I describe the facts as I have > experienced them concerning many aspects of the livaboard life for the > benefit of those who follow in my wake, whether it's the care of batteries, > the benefits of the DC buss, or dealing with man-made hazards. > > The original writer of this thread was contemplating living aboard and I > was describing some of the hazardous conditions he would be facing. > > Most livaboard persecution consists of two types of attacks. One simply > because we are living on a boat anchored in what somebody considers to be > their back yard, and another, based on law, because our ONLY residence is a > boat. If in addition to the boat, we owned property ashore we would > be somewhat protected from the second type (although that may change very > soon if the water cops of Florida have their way) ENTIRELY BECAUSE we own > real property and pay property tax. One of the first questions cops ask us > when they pull alongside Bandersnatch is "Do you have a residence ashore?". > The connection is obvious to me. Because we do not pay money, in the form > of property tax, that finds its way into the pockets of the cops and the > politicians, we are subject to persecution. > > We do have a "home of record" as they would say in the military, at St > Brendan's Isle, along with several thousand other people. It appears on my > vessel's papers, Merchant Marine license and document, drivers license, > voter registration and all other legal documents that require an address. > This is not enough. It does not include the transfer of money from our > pocket into the pockets of our persecutors as property taxes would. > > We are the victims and the attackers are the perpetrators, no matter what > position on the attacking team they play everyone involved bears a degree of > responsibility, just as the get-away driver is also guilty of robbing the > bank. > > "I was just doing my job", is an time-honored defense. You choose your > job. > > CT, I believe you don't think there is a need to lie to a cop about owning > property because you are holding the handle end of the gun. I'd bet that > you own real property, or pay rent, too, You are not yet the victim you are > running out of town (under orders of the politicians of course). > > To be kind, I would like to think that you just don't understand the actual > situation. Now you are much more Cop than you are Livaboard, but when you > retire and if you do live aboard and travel you will change your viewpoint > entirely. > > Being run out of town by a cop because we live aboard is not some fantasy. > It happened to us personally in Melbourne, and there are many other > municipalities who do the same or worse. Melbourne (and others) > have an "ordinance" aimed specifically at "livaboard vessels" as has been > discussed at length both on this list and in personal communications with > the cops and politicians of Melbourne. Fortunately for me, Jan does indeed > own property ashore so for the moment we are somewhat safe. But she may > want to sell that property some day and of course it will soon be immaterial > if the water cops of Florida have their way. > > As reported in the recent List message about the latest major attack on us > happening as we speak in Florida from the Florida FWC (Fish and Wildlife > Commission) and FDEP, which are now trying to drive all anchored boats with > people on them from the entire state of Florida. Once my mother passes away > I may have to seriously consider moving to another country, driven out of my > own simply because I choose to live on a yacht. > > Cops are charged with enforcing the laws politicians make and like to point > out that "they are just doing their job", but cops have great influence > on creating those laws. In fact the new proposal to drive anchored boats > from Florida waters is presented to the Legislature by the Florida Fish and > Wildlife Commission, the most prevalent cops on the water, and the Florida > Department of Environmental Protection. The Police Chief of Marco Island > has admitted in court to being the architect of the restrictive local > ordinances there. > > In addition cops, especially water cops, have great leeway to make judgment > calls on their own.. For example, speed limits are generally not posted in > MPH or knots but as "Slow Speed" or "No Wake" (an absurdity, as any object > moving through any fluid and any speed produces a wake). What could be more > vague and uncompliable? I can easily drive my dinghy at "6 MPG" with a > handheld GPS aboard as I do in Norfolk at the Mile Zero anchorage, but what > constitutes "Slow Speed" is entirely at the whim of the cop. > > lAn example of the lack of such judgement these vague rules assume was an > incident I reported to the List several months ago. As I was leaving the > dinghy dock in Julington Creek I had to pass through a go-slow manatee zone > before I gained the "channel". There was a go-slow manatee zone sign on a > piling some distance from the shore. Once I was offshore from the sign I > came up on plane only to be instantly stopped by a water cop. When I > questioned why he was writing a citation (a warning citation, no fine) he > stated that the sign was installed in the wrong place and I was actually in > a manatee zone! The sign has since been removed so now they have free > reign to nail anybody, anywhere. > > It is a lifetime accumulation of incidents like this one (remember the cop > in St Augustine who wrote me a citation when I told him that contrary to his > demands, a fire extinguisher is not required in my dinghy? Or the cop that > stopped us on a highway to issue a citation and fine for a > "intermittent brake light" that was in perfect working order?), some > smaller, some much larger, that forms my view of cops. > > On the other side of the coin, the one time I can remember that we needed a > cop was when we were attacked by a family of jet skiers (apparently riding > rental units) when anchored near the border of SC and NC near Little River. > The teen-aged boy of the group apparently though he would give us a thrill > so he passed us at high speed and swerved his machine to throw a large > curtain of seawater through our open saloon windows. Jan was on her cell > phone for almost two hours trying to contact a cop to file a complaint. She > was given the usual run-around but finally talked to a Game Warden who told > her if she could prove who did it he could write a warning citation, but we > would have to take the perp to civil court to get a judgement for any > damages to contents of the saloon (mostly tools and furniture). > > While I know in my mind that we need police to keep criminals in check, and > like the Good German I know there must be some good cops out there, but over > the years of my life they have almost completely undermined my respect for > them by their constant adversarial and belligerent attitude, not just toward > me personally, but to everyone I know. Cops just don't seem to know or even > care about the difference between fear and respect. Fear, if shown > properly, looks just like respect and is what is required when dealing > with cops. Respect cannot be demanded, it must be earned,, a far more > difficult task. > > (CT, just because you seem to think it pertinent ,I also gave several years > of my life to my country in exchange for a Honorable Discharge and a > DD-214.) > > Livaboards as a group are not criminals, they do not harm people, they do > not steal., On the contrary we have a long history of helping others in > need. We are persecuted simply because we live on a boat. Cops are the > instruments of that persecution, and I, along with everyone else who loves > the living aboard lifestyle, are the victims. > > > > Norm > S/V Bandersnatch > Lying Julington Creek > 30 07.695N 081 38.484W > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* CT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > *To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *Sent:* 9/29/2008 1:28:21 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Liveaboard] The LIvaboard Lifestyle > > > > Norm, > > You have every right to verbally attack anyone or thing you desire (I > fought for that right) but I have to say we don't live in 1920's Chicago or > 1980's New Orleans. Money does not go into the cops pockets (free coffee at > the local roach coach being my exception). Politicians maybe, Federal, > local and state tax coffers certainly, but the police (marine or land-based > - and yes, I work both) are just doing what they're are directed by statute > to do and that for a salary that does disservice to their risk. > > I don't think there's a need to lie to a cop about owning property but I've > never run into that problem personally. Your boat is real property and you > have probably already paid sales taxes on it and might still be paying > registration taxes as well. In effect, you own property. You don't own > land but the tax system in all their efforts to squeeze the public for money > missed the liveaboard, non-land! owner. Their fault, not ours. A post > office box shoreside is all that's required for a proof of address. > > Were I to vent on the liveaboard/marina issue, it would be against the > environmentalists - they are the prima causa belli in my opinion. Take away > the rules and regulations they forced upon us and you'll find life a little > more resembling nirvana afloat. My opinion, but then, I've never been > mainstream about much. > > All the best, > CT > S/V/ Calliste > >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Norm of Bandersnatch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: Jeff S <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Cc: A LiveAboardList <[email protected]> >> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 12:06:10 PM >> Subject: [Liveaboard] The LIvaboard Lifestyle >> >> >> Jeff, >> >> There is one other gentleman whom I see often at his boat in Julington >> Creek, the green-hulled Tahiti ketch, Tahiti Rover, anchored closest to the >> marinas. He is Robbie Johnson and has a cruising cookbook, the Gourmet >> Underway, or similar. He is not sociable unless he is holding forth about >> his victory over his recent cop attack. >> >> My boat is anchored farthest from the marinas due to draft limitations. >> Jan and I are off and on because we are taking care of my elderly mother in >> Ft Myers. >> >> You should be aware that the liveaboard lifestyle is under constant >> attack. Many Florida municipalities, and I have heard the State itself >> too, actually outlaw living aboard a boat, as does Georgia. We are >> considered to be bums and tramps, akin to Gypsies, and there are laws >> against our very existence. Some weeks ago my nearest neighbor ashore >> stated that he hated me because: I didn't pay property taxes (he pays >> $25K/year for his multi-million dollar house), I poop in the river (I have a >> composting toilet) and I am anchored in his sight. >> >> I am considering taking my pension and SS checks and moving to another >> country to live out my retirement. Suggestions anyone? >> >> Or I could find a marina in this country somewhere and tie the boat up >> even though the boat is self-sufficient at anchor. Rent and utilities would >> cost me about half my retirement stipend. It is far more acceptable to the >> bosses for someone who lives aboard to do this. It is a lifestyle >> more similar the lives of the politicians and cops and more to the point; >> part of one's rent money finds its way into their pockets. >> >> "Local cities and counties in Florida have been prohibited by statute >> 327.60(2) from regulating the anchoring of non live-aboard vessels even >> though many of them have been doing so for years." (from the recent >> posting) >> >> Notice that this prohibition only applies to "NON-LIVEABOARD" vessels. >> Locals are free to outlaw anyone who actually lives aboard his vessel. If >> you own a residence somewhere you are a "full time cruiser" instead of a >> "liveaboard". This is why cops often ask if you have a home on land. The >> proper answer is always "yes". Keep in mind that it is crime to lie to a >> cop, whether you are under oath or not. (However, is is perfectly legal for >> a cop to lie to a citizen and they often do.) >> >> Notice further that our being declared to be criminals has entirely to do >> with owning property ashore or tying up in a marina. The crux of the matter >> lies in money, which relates to the greed for power. Paying property taxes >> on a residence ashore is the primary source of the money in the politician's >> and the cop's wallet. If money flows freely from your pocket to the >> politician's and cop's pocket, you are a good citizen, if not, you are a >> criminal. >> >> I hope you noticed the message posted on this List about the pending major >> attack on us by the FWC water cops. I hope you responded and made your >> viewpoint known to the address provided. >> >> American society is two-faced. The independent, self-sufficient >> ,lifestyle is often respected and admired in literature as the strength of >> the Pioneers who built this Country, but in actual fact we are >> vilified, considered to be degenerate reprobates and laws are enacted >> to destroy us, a process going on as we speak. >> >> If you are considering living aboard a boat you must consider these facts. >> >> These are the man-made conditions the liveaboard has to contend with, and >> they are by far the most danger we face, far worse than any weather, >> mechanical breakage, or navigation demands. >> >> Our own country, which we spent our lives helping to build and supporting >> in many ways, has turned against us and has hired men with guns to destroy >> us. >> >> >> Norm >> S/V Bandersnatch >> Lying Julington Creek >> 30 07.695N 081 38.484W >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Jeff S <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> *To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> *Sent:* 9/27/2008 5:42:59 PM >> *Subject:* Anchored in Julington Creek >> >> Hi Norm, >> >> I saw your posts on the Liveaboard forums. I live in the area and drive >> over the bridge every day and have seen the number of boats anchoring up >> west of the marinas. Does anyone else live aboard there? My wife and I >> are talking about buying a boat and I thought that would be a great place to >> stay. >> >> Thanks >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Liveaboard mailing list >> [email protected] >> To adjust your membership settings over the web >> http://www.liveaboardnow.org/mailman/listinfo/liveaboard >> To subscribe send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> To unsubscribe send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> The archives are at http://www.liveaboardnow.org/pipermail/liveaboard/ >> >> To sear! ch the archives >> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> >> The Mailman Users Guide can be found here >> http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/index.html >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Liveaboard mailing list > [email protected] > To adjust your membership settings over the web > http://www.liveaboardnow.org/mailman/listinfo/liveaboard > To subscribe send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To unsubscribe send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > The archives are at http://www.liveaboardnow.org/pipermail/liveaboard/ > > To search the archives > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > The Mailman Users Guide can be found here > http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/index.html > -- http://www.slideshare.net/jacko91/these-are-my-credentials/ http://fisherhouse.org/ http://www.specialops.org/ "We are the gaurdians of a great faith. When we believe that freedom offers the best chance of peace and prosperity for all, and our desire for peace cannot be seperated from our believe in liberty." Harry J. Truman
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