Tobias Doerffel schrieb:
> Hi,
>
> Am Dienstag, 6. April 2010 21:52:41 schrieben Sie:
>   
>>    1. Chose a sane but fixed output-sampling-rate (44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 96
>>       kHz ... any of these will do. I would rather not go far beyond 96
>>       kHz... Why? Given alias-"free" generators no one even can hear
>>       22.05 kHz tones...)
>>     
> When doing post-processing of render output, samplerates up to 192 KHz IMHO 
> can be helpful - even if most people won't need it.
>   
I never encountered this and I can't see a reason for it either,
currently. So, for what operations would this be beneficial? Due to the
fact that we are no bats, only sample-rates up to (maybe even this is
too high... hmm,...) 96kHz make some sense at all. And only if
post-processing of some sort is involved. For listening the finished
product 44.1 kHz is definitely enough (16-bit maybe a little bit too
less, but the sampling-rate is OK for that...).

> That's whats already done, if I didn't understand you wrong.
>   

:) no, you don't ... This is already happening all the day... :)

>>       would _not_ opt for alias-free waveform-generators
>>     
> To be honest, there's a checkbox but currently it does not have any impact 
> yet.. so don't let you get confused by that.. ;-)
>   

Oh, good... :)

> Why downsample before filters and effects? Usually you want to process audio 
> data at highest samplerate until the end and downsample afterwards. 
> Exceptions 
> are made for LADSPA plugins that are known/were reported to go crazy with 
> higher samplerates.
>   

The reason is just, that going to the ends of the spectrum (either
lowest or highest end, doesn't matter...) the coefficients of any
DSP-Algo may get unstable due to very low or very high values needed to
coope with the higher sampling-rate. While there exist many algorithms
(filter+FX) which do not suffer too much from that problem so they are
usable on a quite large range of sample-rates, some of the more
interesting ones are difficult to be tuned for stable operation on such
a large scale of supported sampling-rates. While this is strongly
related to numerical precision it is something which can be solved. But
it is difficult to do (and to do it "fast" enough for real-time) and
most of the time the gain in quality is so marginal that it's just not
worth the effort...

> Hm.. probably true for filters but not in general. However I'm not completely 
> familiar with all the higher DSP math behind filters etc. so correct me if 
> I'm 
> wrong.
>   

Well, for anything which has at least two poles (so, yes, mainly for
IIR-digital filters :)), this becomes "interesting"... It doesn't apply
on such alike as reverbs or FIR-Filters. My point just was that even
with these the gain in quality is marginal (if present at all) and the
computational load is reduced in either ways...

>> [*] I personally regard a stable rendering quality which as closely as
>> possible resembles the real-time output (but of course without the
>> alias) as being essential for the acceptance of lmms against other
>> solutions, such as MusE or commercial products. Just because if one
>> presses the big render-knob he/she wants to know it sounds the same ...
>> just better (that is without the aliasing) than before...
>>     
> Do you know how other solutions handle this issue? Do they all downsample 
> immediately after the generators?
>   

At least the products I know the internals of, do it this way: Either
they generate the waveforms in a band-limited-manner directly on f_s or
they generate the waveforms with a very high sampling-rate (power of two
to f_s) and down-sample to f_s immediately afterwards, so all following
DSP is done on that lower rate...

all the best,
Stefan


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