On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 10:47 PM Honnappa Nagarahalli < [email protected]> wrote:
> On 28 March 2017 at 22:27, Bill Fischofer <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 10:11 PM, Honnappa Nagarahalli > > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> On 27 March 2017 at 08:36, Ola Liljedahl <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > On 27 March 2017 at 07:58, Honnappa Nagarahalli > >> > <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> My answers inline. I was confused as hell just a month back :) > >> >> > >> >> On 23 March 2017 at 06:28, Francois Ozog <[email protected]> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> The more I dig the less I understand ;-) > >> >>> > >> >>> Let me ask a few questions: > >> >>> > >> >>> - in the future, when selling 32 bit silicon, which architecture > >> >>> version > >> >>> will it be ARMv7 or ARMv8 ? > >> > AFAIK, future 32-bit ARM cores (from ARM) will be ARMv8. But people > >> > are still building SoC's with e.g. ARM920 which is ARMv4T or > >> > something. > >> > > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> What you are referring to is ISA version, not architecture. AArch32 > and > >> >> AArch64 are architectures. ARMv8 also supports AArch32 (i.e. AArch32 > >> >> with > >> >> ARMv8 ISA) > >> > ARMv8 has two architectural states, AArch32 and AArch64. An ARMv8 > >> > implementation can implement either-or or both. There are already > >> > examples out there of all these different combinations. > >> > > >> > AAarch32 supports the A32 and T32 ISA's, these are closely related to > >> > (basically extensions of) the corresponding ARMv7a ARM and Thumb(-2) > >> > ISA's. > >> > The A32 (and T32?) ISA's have some of the ARMv8 extensions, e.g. > >> > load-acquire, store-release, crypto instructions, simplified WFE > >> > support etc. > >> > A user space ARMv7a image should run unmodified on ARMv8/AArch32, I > >> > don't know about other privilege levels but I can imagine an ARMv7a > >> > kernel running in AArch32 with an AArch64 hypervisor. > >> > > >> > AArch64 supports the A64 ISA. This ISA actually supports both 32-bit > >> > and 64-bit operations (although all addresses are 64-bit AFAIK). > >> > 32-bit operations use Wn registers and 64-bit operations use Xn > >> > registers. It's the same register set, Wn just denotes the lower 32 > >> > bits. > >> > > >> >> > >> >> - is the target solution will be running ALL in 32 bits? (boot in 32 > >> >> bits, > >> >>> Linux 32 bits, 32 bits apps)? > >> >>> - or is the target solution will be hybrid (64 bits Linux and some > 32 > >> >>> bits > >> >>> apps). > >> > I think this is the more likely path. If you have >= than 4GB of RAM > >> > (and also other stuff that needs physical addressing), you want a > >> > 64-bit kernel. > >> > > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> The target solution could be Hybrid. Linux could be 64b, the > >> >> applications > >> >> could be 32b. It is my understanding that everything 32b is also > >> >> possible > >> >> using AArch32. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> When I read "AArch64 was designed to remove known implementation > >> >>> challenges of AArch32 cores" on http://infocenter.arm.com/ > >> >>> help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.dai0490a/ar01s01.html > >> >>> I wonder if stating we support AArch32 is a good idea... > >> >>> > >> >>> So what is the best way to describe what we want? > >> >>> - ARMv8 LP64 or ILP32 ? > >> >>> - AArch64 LP64 or ILP32 ? > >> >>> - LP64 or ILP32? > >> >>> > >> >>> I think the best way to say is 'we support AArch64 and AArch32'. > >> > Re AArch64, LP64 or ILP32 applications? > >> > > >> > AArch32 or ARMv7a? > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> FF > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> On 23 March 2017 at 04:57, Honnappa Nagarahalli < > >> >>> [email protected]> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> Hi Bill / Matt and others, > >> >>>> What I was trying to say in our discussion is that, the > >> >>>> ODP-Cloud code should not be pointer heavy. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Please take a look at this video from BUD17: > >> >>>> http://connect.linaro.org/resource/bud17/bud17-101/ (unfortunately > >> >>>> there are no slides, I am trying to get them). This talks about the > >> >>>> performance of the 32b application on AArch64. One of the > >> >>>> applications, has huge performance improvement while running in 32b > >> >>>> mode (ILP32 in this particular case) on AArch64 (when compared to > the > >> >>>> same application compiled for 64b mode running on AArch64 i.e. in > 64b > >> >>>> compilation it performed very poorly). My understanding is that > this > >> >>>> particular application is a pointer chasing application. Other > >> >>>> applications which are not pointer heavy, do not have this > behavior. > >> > Isn't the problem with LP64 that if you have a lot of pointers stored > >> > in data structures, these take 2x the space of ILP32 pointers and thus > >> > increases the cache pressure. > >> > > >> > I don't think it is the pointer chasing itself that is penalised by > >> > 64-bit pointers. Pointer chasing apps are penalised by long > >> > load-to-use latencies (L1 cache hit latency, L2/L3 latencies, DRAM > >> > latency). > >> > > >> >>>> > >> >>>> So, we need to make sure ODP-Cloud is not pointer heavy and does > not > >> >>>> force the application to be pointer heavy, to get good performance > >> >>>> out > >> >>>> of 64b systems. > >> > Even with LP64, ODP could use 32-bit handles for ODP objects. The > >> > address lookup of the handle needs to be efficient (from a cache > >> > perspective) though, already now I can see hotspots in the function > >> > that returns an address from a handle. > >> > > >> > >> Yes, this is what I am trying to convey. If we have 32-bit handles, it > >> does not matter whether it is Aarch32 or Aarch64, the performance will > >> be optimized. > > > > > > The only way we've been able to achieve strong typing with ODP is if the > > handles are of size sizeof(void *). This isn't the case in AArch64, so I > > don't think this will hold. Obviously when ODP is compiled for AArch32 > > pointers (and hence handles) are 32-bits. > > > I did not understand your comment on strong typing. Can you elaborate > or provide an example? > If the handles need to be 64b (i.e. even on a 32b system they are > 64b), then we should keep them as 64b. Otherwise, performance should > be given higher priority. Look at the ODP strong type files in the plat directory. We achieve strong typing by defining handles to be pointers to structs, which C treats as different types. There doesn't appear to be any other way to achieve this since C typedefs are weakly typed. > > > >> > >> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Thank you, > >> >>>> Honnappa > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> -- > >> >>> [image: Linaro] <http://www.linaro.org/> > >> >>> François-Frédéric Ozog | *Director Linaro Networking Group* > >> >>> T: +33.67221.6485 > >> >>> [email protected] | Skype: ffozog > >> >>> > >> >>> > > > > >
