On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Nicholas Williams < nicho...@nicholaswilliams.net> wrote:
> I prefer to avoid markers whenever possible. Unlike levels, markers > require some amount of configuration to get them to log/not log when > desired. They don't "just work." > I agree there, it's just not quite that turnkey. You can write "use markers" in an email, but the config and code that goes along with that is much heavier. I make heavy use of logger hierarchies and levels, I've yet to use markers. Gary > N > > Sent from my iPhone from LAX baggage claim, so please forgive brief > replies and frequent typos > But you had the time to type all that? ;) G > > On Jan 18, 2014, at 14:01, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Markers all around! No logging levels, just allow markers to have ordinals > or bit-flags to allow more flexible filtering. > > Sorry, nothing useful to add beyond wild speculations. > > > On 18 January 2014 15:15, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: > >> Actually, here is how I would prefer it. Let’s see if it makes sense to >> anyone else. >> >> FATAL - Hopefully, almost never logged because the system is crashing. >> ERROR - Something affecting the usability of the system occurred. >> WARN - Something not nice, but probably recoverable occurred. May lead to >> errors later. >> INFO - Something of general interest, but not necessarily significant. >> DIAG or DIAGNOSTIC - Events that can be used by operations or users to >> diagnose problems in the system. >> DEBUG - Used by developers for internal debugging. >> VERBOSE - Used to log minute details of the system. As its dictionary >> definition implies this is extremely chatty. >> TRACE - Adds tracing of method entry and exit, possibly object creation >> and initialization. >> >> I believe these should be enough for anybody. I still think CONFIG is a >> Marker at the INFO level. The advantage of being a Marker is that it can be >> enabled regardless of its level and enabling it doesn’t imply enabling >> other levels. >> >> Ralph >> >> >> On Jan 18, 2014, at 1:03 PM, Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 2:21 PM, Ralph Goers >> <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com>wrote: >> >>> STEP? No clue what that means. >>> >>> Gary, if you want to implement VERBOSE between INFO and DEBUG I’m OK >>> with that, but what will that map to in SLF4J, etc. DEBUG? >>> >> >> Sounds OK, I can see it as debug data, but for users, instead of >> developers. >> >> Gary >> >>> >>> And yes, something on the web site should document our recommended usage >>> for levels and markers. >>> >>> Ralph >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Ah, my view of VERBOSE is that it is _more_ information, hence INFO < >>> VERBOSE < DEBUG; while it sounds like Ralphs sees it as more DEBUG data. >>> >>> For me DEBUG data is going to be already verbose, even more than >>> 'verbose'. >>> >>> What is interesting (to me) is that DEBUG is often misused based on this >>> basic mix: debug messages can be for users *and/or* for developers, there >>> is no distinction in the audience. >>> >>> For example, as a user, I want to get data to help me debug my >>> configuration and my process. As a developer, I want to debug the code. >>> These can be two very different set of data. >>> >>> But we do not have DEBUG_USER and DEBUG_DEV levels. I would see INFO >>> next to VERBOSE as useful to users. Then DEBUG and TRACE useful for >>> developers. Each app can have its convention of course, but it would be >>> nice to have the distinction available through levels for developers to use. >>> >>> I see TRACE as method entry and exit type of logging, *very* *low* level >>> stuff. >>> >>> We could also have both (ducking for projectiles): >>> >>> INFO >>> VERBOSE >>> DEBUG >>> STEP >>> TRACE >>> >>> Gary >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Ralph Goers < >>> ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Oops. I just noticed you proposed that VERBOSE be between INFO and >>>> DEBUG. Now that I don’t understand. My experience is that VERBOSE is >>>> usually more detailed than debug messages, not less. >>>> >>>> Ralph >>>> >>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 9:44 AM, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I understand the need for CONFIG. However it isn’t clear to me whether >>>> it belongs between INFO and WARN or DEBUG and INFO. That is because it >>>> typically would be used to log configuration during startup. That doesn’t >>>> necessarily imply that you would then want to see all INFO messages as >>>> well. Due to that, it would make more sense to me to make a CONFIG marker. >>>> >>>> I don’t really understand the point of FINE or FINER. >>>> >>>> On the other hand, VERBOSE does make a bit more sense, but I’m >>>> struggling with how that is any different than TRACE. I guess the idea is >>>> that TRACE is for control flow (entry, exit) and VERBOSE is for more >>>> detailed debug messages? I suppose I can go along with that argument, but >>>> again one could just as easily create a VERBOSE marker and attach it to >>>> either TRACE or DEBUG. I guess I wouldn’t object if VERBOSE was added as a >>>> Level but I’m not really convinced it is necessary either. >>>> >>>> Ralph >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Remko Popma <remko.po...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I've always liked Ralph's argument that Markers give users much more >>>> flexibility than any predefined Levels. >>>> I would prefer to stick to the log4j/slf4j level names. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Gary Gregory >>>> <garydgreg...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>> >>>>> Interesting, I have been wanting a VERBOSE level better INFO and DEBUG. >>>>> >>>>> See >>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/logging-log4j-dev/201310.mbox/%3CCACZkXPxNwYbn__CbXUqFhC7e3Q=kee94j+udhe8+6jiubcz...@mail.gmail.com%3E >>>>> >>>>> You'll have to dig a little in that ref to find my proposal, sorry I'm >>>>> on my phone ATM. >>>>> >>>>> It sounds like we see logging configuration messages differently >>>>> though. I do not like the name CONFIG because it does not sound like a >>>>> level to me. Otoh, many command lines have a verbose AND a debug switch. >>>>> So >>>>> it makes sense to me too have corresponding levels. >>>>> >>>>> Gary >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>> From: Nick Williams >>>>> Date:01/17/2014 23:50 (GMT-05:00) >>>>> To: Log4J Developers List >>>>> Subject: Web Issues, Logging Levels, and GA >>>>> >>>>> Wanted to update y'all. As you know, I've been very absent lately due >>>>> to the book consuming every minute of my free time. I know I haven't been >>>>> contributing my due, and for that please accept my sincerest apologies. >>>>> The >>>>> book is finally done (goes on sale next month!) and I can get back to >>>>> regular life. I'm going to be out of town for the next week on a >>>>> much-needed vacation with very limited access to email. I'll be back the >>>>> weekend of January 25-26, and that weekend I will be spending almost the >>>>> entire time finally dealing with the 8-10 web application-related bugs. >>>>> After that, I don't see any encumbrances to releasing >>>>> 2.0.0.GA<http://2.0.0.ga/> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> Except... >>>>> >>>>> Logging Levels. We kinda-sorta talked about this a few months ago, and >>>>> a few months before that, and a few months before that, but we never >>>>> actually DID anything about it. It's clear by now that my "extendable >>>>> enum" >>>>> proposal (that would be a drop-in replacement for and binary compatible >>>>> with the current Level enum) is not going to be accepted. Absent any other >>>>> proposals, I suggest we add the following new levels before GA: >>>>> >>>>> CONFIG - Between INFO and WARN, mapped to INFO for bridges to other >>>>> frameworks that don't have an equivalent level >>>>> >>>>> FINE - Between DEBUG and TRACE, mapped to TRACE for bridges to other >>>>> frameworks that don't have an equivalent level >>>>> >>>>> I'll let y'all chat about that over the next week. ;-) >>>>> >>>>> Be back soon, >>>>> >>>>> Nick >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscr...@logging.apache.org >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-h...@logging.apache.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >>> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >> >> >> > > > -- > Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> > > -- E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com Home: http://garygregory.com/ Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory
