Ralph, those are the same logging levels as Apache HTTPD: http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/mod/core.html#loglevel
As for your explanation of DIAG, it's clearly (imo) a DEBUG statement with a kind of marker. That doesn't deserve another logging level. On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 10:25 AM, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com>wrote: > One thing I find interesting in this discussion is that Unix systems have > been dealing with syslog levels for years. (See > http://www.ypass.net/blog/2012/06/introduction-to-syslog-log-levelspriorities/) > for a nice discussion on them. Of the 8 levels 3 essentially map to what > we call “FATAL” (2 of those 3 applications should never use). Syslog has > NOTICE exactly where Gary placed it so reusing that doesn’t strike as > something that people would find confusing. OTOH, syslog doesn’t even have > the TRACE level. > > As for Diagnostic vs debug - I thought I made that clear when I suggested > the name. Diagnostic messages are what Operations and/or end users might > find of interest when errors (or warnings) happen. They are not the error > or warning messages themselves but provide more detailed information to aid > in problem solving. They would be messages that could be helpful without > having to resort to looking at the code. Debug messages are usually of > more interest to developers and typically include information on the > internal workings of the system. > > I tend to agree that there is ambiguity between TRACE and VERBOSE, but I > have no problem adding it if it means end users will have more flexibility > with little cost. > > Whatever we do it needs to be done now before a GA release. The Levels > are all defined with integer values that will have to change if new levels > are inserted thus breaking compatibility (everything using Log4j 2 in the > system will need to be recompiled). In hindsight it probably would have > been better to multiply the values by 100. > > Ralph > > On Jan 21, 2014, at 7:17 AM, Paul Benedict <pbened...@apache.org> wrote: > > Gary, with respect, I disagree with that philosophy. Because logging > levels have an inherit order (fatalistic --> tracing), it's really > important for the names to match the intended gradation. The levels make > total sense with the 5 we have. For example, I know FATAL > ERROR > WARN > > INFO just because the English language has it as such. I also know DEBUG > > TRACE. However, the new ones, there's no such easy match. I *will* have to > look them up to figure out where they are on the scale ... and, I also > don't like where they're being placed. > > * Diagnostic is really no better than debug. I can't make up an argument > why I that's superior over debug(). > * Trace is pretty much verbose -- so why be verbose without tracing? Or > why isn't your debug verbose? > > I don't agree necessarily disagree with the intention of adding more; I > just don't think log4j can accurately label them or give them good meaning. > This should be left to individual developers through an expansion mechanism. > > > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 8:27 AM, Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 11:06 PM, Paul Benedict <pbened...@apache.org>wrote: >> >>> That's up to you guys :-) As I said, I don't think the extra logging >>> levels have any real true definition to where they belong. It can be argued >>> until the end of time where they fit. But since you definitely want more, >>> just copy what's already out there so at least you can say you're >>> consistent with someone else's answer. >>> >> >> I'm thinking now that it does not matter so much what the levels are >> called (within reason) but that there are enough of them so give developers >> enough granularity. >> >> Gary >> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 9:48 PM, Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com>wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 10:40 PM, Paul Benedict >>>> <pbened...@apache.org>wrote: >>>> >>>>> If you really want extra logging levels without the long debate, just >>>>> go copy the logging levels of Apache HTTPD. They already figured out where >>>>> to place all the extra levels you guys are discussing and they've been >>>>> around for years. It will be a worthy precedent to copy. >>>>> >>>> >>>> That would be 16 levels then? >>>> https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/mod/core.html#loglevel >>>> >>>> Gary >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jan 20, 2014 9:09 PM, "Gary Gregory" <garydgreg...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 9:54 PM, Paul Benedict >>>>>> <pbened...@apache.org>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I know we had the debate of extra logging levels for the past year. >>>>>>> The extra levels are very subjective. If anyone needs more than our >>>>>>> standard five, please just use markers. We should even have a whole >>>>>>> page on >>>>>>> the site dedicated to such a solution. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It really is impossible to get consensus on the subject. I never >>>>>>> needed more then our standard levels and every proposal for more shows >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> confusion that no one is really clear where they belong. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I think that with Ralphs list, we are getting a nice >>>>>> solution/evolution. >>>>>> >>>>>> The great thing about the new levels is that no one is forcing >>>>>> developers to use the new levels, feel free to ignore them! ;) >>>>>> >>>>>> As a user, it is very easy to throttle how much log events you get, >>>>>> change "DEBUG" to "VERBOSE" and you're done. >>>>>> >>>>>> OTOH, achieving the same effect with makers is more work IMO for >>>>>> developers and users. So I look at markers as the workaround to the >>>>>> 'levels >>>>>> are not fine enough for my app' problem. Saying "use markers" is not a >>>>>> fair >>>>>> comparison to "change the level", from a dev and user POV. Yes, it's a >>>>>> solution but a much heavier one. >>>>>> >>>>>> Gary >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014 2:27 PM, "Gary Gregory" <garydgreg...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Nicholas Williams < >>>>>>>> nicho...@nicholaswilliams.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To be clear, here's how I see it (assuming we adopted all levels >>>>>>>>> proposed): >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> FATAL > ERROR > WARN > CONFIG > INFO > VERBOSE > DEBUG > FINE > >>>>>>>>> TRACE. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Interesting, I would have swapped CONFIG and INFO. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Can you talk a little more why CONFIG > INFO (and not INFO > >>>>>>>> CONFIG)? For me, I would use VERBOSE for configuration logging. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> CONFIG would map to INFO for slf4j. VERBOSE and FINE would both >>>>>>>>> map to DEBUG. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My motivation for FINE was similar to your motivation for VERBOSE: >>>>>>>>> DEBUG isn't quite enough. In retrospect, I agree more with you that >>>>>>>>> something is needed more on the INFO side of DEBUG rather than the >>>>>>>>> TRACE >>>>>>>>> side. That would allow DEBUG to be used for what it's really meant >>>>>>>>> for. So >>>>>>>>> I'm fine with VERBOSE instead. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My reason for putting CONFIG between INFO and WARN is simple: I >>>>>>>>> ALWAYS want to see config-related messages when the application >>>>>>>>> starts, but >>>>>>>>> I don't always want to see INFO messages after it starts. And if >>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>> re-configures while the application is running, I want to see that, >>>>>>>>> too. >>>>>>>>> I've developed the habit of logging startup messages as WARNings, >>>>>>>>> which I >>>>>>>>> don't like doing. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hope that helps some. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nick >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone from the Las Vegas airport, so please forgive >>>>>>>>> brief replies and frequent typos >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 11:21, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> STEP? No clue what that means. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gary, if you want to implement VERBOSE between INFO and DEBUG I’m >>>>>>>>> OK with that, but what will that map to in SLF4J, etc. DEBUG? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And yes, something on the web site should document our recommended >>>>>>>>> usage for levels and markers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ah, my view of VERBOSE is that it is _more_ information, hence >>>>>>>>> INFO < VERBOSE < DEBUG; while it sounds like Ralphs sees it as more >>>>>>>>> DEBUG >>>>>>>>> data. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For me DEBUG data is going to be already verbose, even more than >>>>>>>>> 'verbose'. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What is interesting (to me) is that DEBUG is often misused based >>>>>>>>> on this basic mix: debug messages can be for users *and/or* for >>>>>>>>> developers, >>>>>>>>> there is no distinction in the audience. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For example, as a user, I want to get data to help me debug my >>>>>>>>> configuration and my process. As a developer, I want to debug the >>>>>>>>> code. >>>>>>>>> These can be two very different set of data. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But we do not have DEBUG_USER and DEBUG_DEV levels. I would see >>>>>>>>> INFO next to VERBOSE as useful to users. Then DEBUG and TRACE useful >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> developers. Each app can have its convention of course, but it would >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> nice to have the distinction available through levels for developers >>>>>>>>> to use. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I see TRACE as method entry and exit type of logging, *very* *low* >>>>>>>>> level stuff. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We could also have both (ducking for projectiles): >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> INFO >>>>>>>>> VERBOSE >>>>>>>>> DEBUG >>>>>>>>> STEP >>>>>>>>> TRACE >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Ralph Goers < >>>>>>>>> ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Oops. I just noticed you proposed that VERBOSE be between INFO >>>>>>>>>> and DEBUG. Now that I don’t understand. My experience is that >>>>>>>>>> VERBOSE is >>>>>>>>>> usually more detailed than debug messages, not less. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 9:44 AM, Ralph Goers < >>>>>>>>>> ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I understand the need for CONFIG. However it isn’t clear to me >>>>>>>>>> whether it belongs between INFO and WARN or DEBUG and INFO. That is >>>>>>>>>> because it typically would be used to log configuration during >>>>>>>>>> startup. >>>>>>>>>> That doesn’t necessarily imply that you would then want to see all >>>>>>>>>> INFO >>>>>>>>>> messages as well. Due to that, it would make more sense to me to >>>>>>>>>> make a >>>>>>>>>> CONFIG marker. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I don’t really understand the point of FINE or FINER. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, VERBOSE does make a bit more sense, but I’m >>>>>>>>>> struggling with how that is any different than TRACE. I guess the >>>>>>>>>> idea is >>>>>>>>>> that TRACE is for control flow (entry, exit) and VERBOSE is for more >>>>>>>>>> detailed debug messages? I suppose I can go along with that >>>>>>>>>> argument, but >>>>>>>>>> again one could just as easily create a VERBOSE marker and attach it >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> either TRACE or DEBUG. I guess I wouldn’t object if VERBOSE was >>>>>>>>>> added as a >>>>>>>>>> Level but I’m not really convinced it is necessary either. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Remko Popma <remko.po...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I've always liked Ralph's argument that Markers give users much >>>>>>>>>> more flexibility than any predefined Levels. >>>>>>>>>> I would prefer to stick to the log4j/slf4j level names. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Gary Gregory < >>>>>>>>>> garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Interesting, I have been wanting a VERBOSE level better INFO and >>>>>>>>>>> DEBUG. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> See >>>>>>>>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/logging-log4j-dev/201310.mbox/%3CCACZkXPxNwYbn__CbXUqFhC7e3Q=kee94j+udhe8+6jiubcz...@mail.gmail.com%3E >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You'll have to dig a little in that ref to find my proposal, >>>>>>>>>>> sorry I'm on my phone ATM. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It sounds like we see logging configuration messages differently >>>>>>>>>>> though. I do not like the name CONFIG because it does not sound >>>>>>>>>>> like a >>>>>>>>>>> level to me. Otoh, many command lines have a verbose AND a debug >>>>>>>>>>> switch. So >>>>>>>>>>> it makes sense to me too have corresponding levels. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>>>>>>>> From: Nick Williams >>>>>>>>>>> Date:01/17/2014 23:50 (GMT-05:00) >>>>>>>>>>> To: Log4J Developers List >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Web Issues, Logging Levels, and GA >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Wanted to update y'all. As you know, I've been very absent >>>>>>>>>>> lately due to the book consuming every minute of my free time. I >>>>>>>>>>> know I >>>>>>>>>>> haven't been contributing my due, and for that please accept my >>>>>>>>>>> sincerest >>>>>>>>>>> apologies. The book is finally done (goes on sale next month!) and >>>>>>>>>>> I can >>>>>>>>>>> get back to regular life. I'm going to be out of town for the next >>>>>>>>>>> week on >>>>>>>>>>> a much-needed vacation with very limited access to email. I'll be >>>>>>>>>>> back the >>>>>>>>>>> weekend of January 25-26, and that weekend I will be spending >>>>>>>>>>> almost the >>>>>>>>>>> entire time finally dealing with the 8-10 web application-related >>>>>>>>>>> bugs. >>>>>>>>>>> After that, I don't see any encumbrances to releasing >>>>>>>>>>> 2.0.0.GA<http://2.0.0.ga/> >>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Except... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Logging Levels. We kinda-sorta talked about this a few months >>>>>>>>>>> ago, and a few months before that, and a few months before that, >>>>>>>>>>> but we >>>>>>>>>>> never actually DID anything about it. It's clear by now that my >>>>>>>>>>> "extendable >>>>>>>>>>> enum" proposal (that would be a drop-in replacement for and binary >>>>>>>>>>> compatible with the current Level enum) is not going to be >>>>>>>>>>> accepted. Absent >>>>>>>>>>> any other proposals, I suggest we add the following new levels >>>>>>>>>>> before GA: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> CONFIG - Between INFO and WARN, mapped to INFO for bridges to >>>>>>>>>>> other frameworks that don't have an equivalent level >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> FINE - Between DEBUG and TRACE, mapped to TRACE for bridges to >>>>>>>>>>> other frameworks that don't have an equivalent level >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'll let y'all chat about that over the next week. ;-) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Be back soon, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Nick >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscr...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: >>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev-h...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>>>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >>>>>>>>> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>>>>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >>>>>>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>>>>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >>>>>>>> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>>>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >>>>>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>>>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >>>>>> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >>>>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >>>> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >>>> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cheers, >>> Paul >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second >> Edition<http://www.manning.com/bauer3/> >> JUnit in Action, Second Edition <http://www.manning.com/tahchiev/> >> Spring Batch in Action <http://www.manning.com/templier/> >> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >> > > > > -- > Cheers, > Paul > > > -- Cheers, Paul
