Hi, Chris:

Until now, I haven’t heard you, and also other experts for the technical 
analysis of UPDATED big-TLV 
solution(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-isis-big-tlv/)

Lack of such technical analysis, any subjective conclusion is untenable.

It’s same as declaring again and again the MP-TLV can solve the problem, even 
in short term.

If possible, I can argue with the authors, or you Chairs for the unsolved 
issues that existing in MP-TLV proposal face to face during the IETF 121 
meeting time.

Aijun Wang
China Telecom

> On Oct 31, 2024, at 21:24, 【外部账号】Christian Hopps <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Hi Aijun,
> 
> [as wg-member] Please see Henk Smit’s response. I fully support what he said. 
> We have a short term solution that the WG agrees is sufficient, and it is 
> explicitly not Big TLV. Likewise container TLVs are not a long-term elegant 
> solution.
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris.
> 
>> On Oct 28, 2024, at 09:22, Aijun Wang <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi, Chris:
>> 
>> Let’s discuss your proposal and Les’s responses more further.
>> 
>> First, depending on RFC7356 to solve the potential problem is not 
>> practicable—You must define all the new types for possible big IS-IS TLV, 
>> and also their relevant sub-TLVs.
>> It’s obviously not the candidate solution.
>> 
>> On the contrary, the updated Big-TLV 
>> proposal(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-lsr-isis-big-tlv/) 
>> needs only to define one new generic TLV to solve all possible big-TLV 
>> problem, and also their sub-TLVs.
>> 
>> Second, regarding to Les’s responses at 
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lsr/iL-3bd3LC9ZfYftZUyky3bWyX4E/:
>> 
>> “ This is why some RFCs left the choice in such cases to the implementor.
>> I mention this only to avoid an argument about trying to retrofit this model 
>> to codepoints where this choice was not made. It isn’t worth the trouble and 
>> would instantly render some implementations non-conformant without 
>> significant benefit.”
>> 
>> It’s possible that there are in private negotiation among different vendors 
>> when there are interoperability issues from such implicit “what constitutes 
>> a key”, such situations will be deteriorated when these TLV/sub-TLVs are 
>> sliced according to the MP-TLV proposal.
>> 
>> The MP-TLV proposal will amplify such non-conformant issues.
>> 
>> It’s time to find one general solution to Big-TLV problem.
>> 
>> Aijun Wang
>> China Telecom
>> 
>> 
>> Aijun Wang
>> China Telecom
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 26, 2024, at 20:09, 【外部账号】Christian Hopps <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hannes Gredler <[email protected]> writes:
>>> 
>>>> Why are we having this discussion again ?
>>>> 
>>>> My recollection is that we have a “good enough” solution that is
>>>> deployed and interoperable.
>>>> If you want the “generic solution” then the 16-bit TLVs described in
>>>> RFC7356 is the way to go forward and if there is concern about
>>>> incremental deployment then we should work on this aspect.
>>> 
>>> I also believe the 16 bit solution is the way forward if people wish to do 
>>> any more on this at this point.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Chris.
>>> [as wg-member]
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> /hannes
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>   On 23.10.2024, at 00:50, Aijun Wang <[email protected]>
>>>>   wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>   Hi,Chris:
>>>> 
>>>>   Please elaborate clearly your technical reviews for the updates
>>>>   of the newly proposed Big-TLV solution.
>>>> 
>>>>   I can copy the updates again at here and state their effects
>>>>   clearly.(https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lsr/
>>>>   dxK4Gy1WDR7QCXK6p58xgA0MdUc/ )Please give your analysis before
>>>>   you make any conclusions:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>   A new version of Big-TLV document has been 
>>>> posted(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-lsr-isis-big-tlv), 
>>>> to try to give the community one general way to solve the Big TLV problem.
>>>> 
>>>>   The main changes from the previous versions are the followings:
>>>>   1) Add one "Identification" field within the container TLV(type TBD1), 
>>>> to function as the key for any sliced TLV, and is TLV code point 
>>>> independent.
>>>>   2) Add one "Flag" field, define currently the "F" bit to indicate 
>>>> whether the piece of container is the first piece(F bit is set to 1), or 
>>>> not (F bit is unset)
>>>>   3) Put all the sliced pieces within the newly defined container TLV(type 
>>>> TBD1).
>>>>   4) Define some rules for the "Split and Glue" procedures(may be 
>>>> re-optimizer later after the WG discussions)
>>>> 
>>>>   The updated version erases the necessity of defining the "key" 
>>>> information for every IS-IS (Possible Big) TLV code point, and also the 
>>>> necessity of per-TLV capability announcement.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>   I would like to hear your detail analysis, especially as the WG chairs, 
>>>> for the above statements.
>>>> 
>>>>   Aijun Wang
>>>>   China Telecom
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>       On Oct 22, 2024, at 20:15, 【外部账号】Christian Hopps
>>>>       <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>       Those changes don't appear to address what the WG already
>>>>       decided against. The view of the WG was that a new Big TLV
>>>>       for doing this was not going to work. Given the name of this
>>>>       work is Big TLV, that doesn't seem to have changed. So why
>>>>       should the WG be spending even more time on a solution they
>>>>       already discussed, debated and discarded?
>>>> 
>>>>       Thanks,
>>>>       Chris.
>>>>       [as wg chair]
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>           On Oct 22, 2024, at 06:47, Aijun Wang
>>>>           <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>           Hi, Chris:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>           No, we have made some significant updates.
>>>> 
>>>>           Please refer to https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lsr
>>>>           /dxK4Gy1WDR7QCXK6p58xgA0MdUc/ for more information.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>           Aijun Wang
>>>> 
>>>>           China Telecom
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>               On Oct 22, 2024, at 17:04, 【外部账号】Christian
>>>>               Hopps <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>               Is this the same thing that Huaimo has already
>>>>               presented to the WG, that the WG decided was not the
>>>>               way it wanted to go?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>               Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>>               Chris.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>               "Aijun Wang" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   Hi, Yingzhen:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   I would like to request 10-15minutes to make the
>>>>                   presentation for the
>>>> 
>>>>                   “IS-IS Extension for Big TLV”
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   The related information are the followings:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   Draft Name:  IS-IS Extension for Big TLV
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   Link:    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/
>>>>                   draft-wang-lsr-isis-big-tlv
>>>> 
>>>>                   /
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   Presenter: Aijun Wang
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   Desired Slot Length: 10-15minutes.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   Best Regards
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   Aijun Wang
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   China Telecom
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   发件人: [email protected]
>>>> 
>>>>                   [mailto:[email protected]] 代表
>>>>                   Yingzhen Qu
>>>> 
>>>>                   发送时间: 2024年10月12日 3:54
>>>> 
>>>>                   收件人: lsr <[email protected]>; lsr-chairs
>>>>                   <[email protected]>
>>>> 
>>>>                   主题: [Lsr] IETF 121 LSR Slot Requests
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   Hi,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   The draft agenda for IETF 121 has been posted:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   IETF 121 Meeting Agenda
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   The LSR session is scheduled on Thursday Session
>>>>                   I 09:30-11:30, Nov 7th, 2024.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   Please send slot requests to [email protected]
>>>>                   before the end of the day
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   Wednesday Oct 23.  Please include draft name and
>>>>                   link, presenter, desired
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   slot length including Q&A.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>                   Yingzhen
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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