Hi all, Thanks for the discussion. A few months ago I wrote a piece for SSIR <https://ssir.org/articles/entry/ai-building-community-governance#> advocating for civil society funders and orgs to address tech co power consolidation through community-led governance. This speaks to accountability more broadly than to specifics of the technology/algorithms, so I'm not sure if this directly answers your questions, Kate, but sending it in case it is of interest.
Lina On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 11:29 PM Paola Di Maio <[email protected]> wrote: > Kate > thanks for bringing up the questions, which make sense > But technically, they may be *'ill posed' *(imho) > That is because there is a mixup and overlap in > terminology/concepts/implementations adopting the same > terminology applied to different concepts etc > > All algorithms are in principle auditable even when they are proprietary, > and the only way companies can maintain their > competitive advantage is by keeping he algorithms proprietary, or de > facto, a trade secret > You cannot make any laws against trade secrets afaik > Some of these algorithms are useful and amazing even, technically > but for example, I started to notice that when I leave a whatsapp message > to someone > the content of my message is picked and turns up into the adveritisng on > FB and in turn > via some agreement that I may not know about, it turns up in adverts on > youtube, google search etc > > To what extent are the search results that I obtain skewed based on my > user profile, which is in turn based on my login credentials, which is in > turn based on the apps/web services that i use? > I would say it's a lot skewed. how so? by a mixture of algorithms , > commercial agreements, trade secrets which are all legal > > I think one face of the blockchain may be to disrupt this entanglement by > encryptions and fragmentation > but the reality, is that the master key is only visible to some, and THEY > are building the machine, in the name of democratization of the internet, > go figure > > My advice would be, start auditing individual functions > (input-process-output) for each task/app > then build the map of the ecosystem entanglement from there, keeping in > mind that by means of generative algorithm > the map is constantly reconfiguring itself, and not traceable (a property > of the blockchain, auch) > and NOT REPLICABLE (a property of generative algos) > > Very very thorny entanglement, the best we can do is to stay on top of > things > (scratching head) > > > > On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 4:52 AM Kate Krauss <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I'm trying to understand the lay of the land. >> >> So, generative AI company algorithms are proprietary, like Facebook's and >> Tiktok's have been all along. Companies still aren't sharing algorithms >> with researchers, even if they sign a non-disclosure agreement (still >> true?). If we can't see it, we can't analyze it, regulate it, amend it, or >> make it accountable. I've always been surprised that people don't leak >> them. >> >> Companies could be compelled to make their algorithms more transparent if >> there were a law that requires it, but so far there's no law. >> >> Paola, if your field is algorithmic auditability, do you ever see >> proprietary algorithms? If so, how? >> >> Also: >> >> Earlier today Lina Khan, head of the US Federal Trade Commission, tweeted: >> --- Today @FTC <https://x.com/FTC> referred its case against TikTok to >> the Civil Division at >> @TheJusticeDept <https://x.com/TheJusticeDept> >> . Our investigation found reason to believe that TikTok is violating or >> about to violate the FTC Act and the Children’s Online Privacy Protection >> Act (COPPA). >> ---- >> As a complete non-lawyer, I was interested to see that TikTok was getting >> in trouble partly because the FTC believes they are* about to violate >> these laws. * Users are about to get injured by Tiktok, predicts the >> FTC. I didn't know a company could be sued for something it hasn't done >> wrong yet. >> >> If so, could this apply to generative AI companies? >> >> Is there a lawyer who might answer that question? >> >> -Kate >> >> ps: Here's the link for such a lawyer to sign up for this list: >> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt and for us, here are short >> explanations of the FTC Act >> <https://www.ftc.gov/legal-library/browse/statutes/federal-trade-commission-act> >> and COPPA >> <https://www.ftc.gov/legal-library/browse/rules/childrens-online-privacy-protection-rule-coppa> >> . >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 12:36 AM Kate Krauss <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Yes, that's an interesting idea, Hans. >>> >>> Former NSA chief Keith Alexander, who has a history of lying about >>> spying on Americans, is on Amazon's board. >>> >>> -Kate >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 12:21 AM Klein, Hans K <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> The case of OpenAI is one instance of a general trend in which national >>>> security agencies overlap with IT/media corporations. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The same thing happened at Twitter, I believe: >>>> https://twitterfiles.substack.com/p/1-thread-the-twitter-files >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It would be quite useful and interesting for someone to perform some >>>> non-partisan research on such ties in general. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hans Klein >>>> >>>> Georgia Tech >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* LT <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Paola >>>> Di Maio >>>> *Sent:* Monday, June 17, 2024 10:46 PM >>>> *To:* Isaac M <[email protected]> >>>> *Cc:* [email protected]; Kate Krauss <[email protected]>; >>>> LT <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Andrés >>>> Leopoldo Pacheco Sanfuentes <[email protected]> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [liberationtech] OpenAI adds Trump-appointed former NSA >>>> director to its board >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you Kate for bringing up this issue here >>>> >>>> How do you think this should be tackled? My work is in algorithmic >>>> auditablity, awareness and explainability >>>> >>>> trying to develop more understanding and possibly standards >>>> >>>> what do people suggest? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Note for Sawsan: I think the reference to the president here was >>>> purely related to the person being part of that administration at the >>>> time?* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Paola Di Maio W3C AI KR CG* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 4:41 AM Isaac M <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> We should never place our hopes on company boards functioning in the >>>> public interest. The recent debacles at Boeing and Tesla demonstrate this. >>>> In Tesla's case, the board and shareholders with meme greed have only >>>> indulged Elon Musk, further bolstering his feudalistic tendencies. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 8:19 AM Kate Krauss <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> So OpenAI has a conflicted mission, a weak board, an insanely >>>> risky goal, and no accountability (am I missing something?). Oh right, >>>> their product is evolving at a million miles an hour. >>>> >>>> They've shed many of the staff and board members who cared most about >>>> safety. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Microsoft, their funder, could reign them in but it is motivated >>>> instead to egg them on. And now they've got a board member with very close >>>> ties to two US presidents and one of the world's most powerful spy >>>> agencies. The keys are on the table, as Juan Benet would say. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't think OpenAI could be getting more press coverage--the coverage >>>> has been near-constant and pretty responsible. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Are the NGOs working on this having any luck? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -Kate >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 12:27 PM Andrés Leopoldo Pacheco Sanfuentes < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sorry but “accountability” runs afoul of profit so many times, and the >>>> “mission” of OpenAI is DoubleSpeak: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> OpenAI is an AI research and deployment company. Our mission is to >>>> ensure that artificial general intelligence benefits all of humanity. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards / Saludos / Grato >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Andrés Leopoldo Pacheco Sanfuentes >>>> >>>> Pronouns: He/Him/They/Them (equal preference) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jun 16, 2024, at 10:52 AM, Kate Krauss <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There is currently no accountability for the decisions at OpenAI, to my >>>> knowledge. What has to happen for that to change? The board is not working. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> How can the company be held accountable? I'm especially interested in >>>> the thoughts of policy people and lawyers on this list. And yes, choosing >>>> a spy chief for the board is a big red flag. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kate >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jun 15, 2024 at 12:16 AM Sawsan Gad <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello friends — >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I was so happy when Liberationtech was resurrected, and of course a >>>> former head of NSA on AI is something that needs to covered and discussed. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> However, I hope we’re not quickly degenerating into Trump-this >>>> Trump-that (and sensationalizing the title, only to realize the guy “was >>>> asked to continue under Biden” buried deep down inside). (!) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Journalists may need to do this kind of (… work..?) to keep their jobs >>>> — god knows for how long. Normal people, not so much. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> People are working very hard to restore a basic level of trust among >>>> family and friends, after the several political and civil abuses of the >>>> last few years. Let’s please keep good spirits and stay relevant on the >>>> things that we all care about, and not assume political leanings of others, >>>> and that magic words will evoke certain reactions à la Pavlov. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Now, back to discussing OpenAI. :) >>>> >>>> (Sorry Kate if that’s too forward. All respect to you, thank you for >>>> sharing the article). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sawsan Gad >>>> >>>> PhD student - Geoinformatics >>>> >>>> George Mason University >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 8:05 PM Kate Krauss <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Sam Altman, one of AI's most important leaders--at least for now--is a >>>> man with incredible contacts, wonderful social skills, and apparently few >>>> scruples. Appointing the former head of the NSA to OpenAI's board >>>> demonstrates that this company is unaccountable. This company puts >>>> Americans--and everybody else in the world--at risk. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> How can OpenAI be made accountable? The stakes are so high. Its board >>>> has already failed to contain it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Not even the worst part of this, but new board member Nakasone's hobby >>>> horse is that the US must out-compete China in generative AI. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -Kate >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ps: What happens at OpenAI if Trump is re-elected? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Washington Post: OpenAI adds Trump-appointed former NSA director to >>>> its board * >>>> Paul M. Nakasone joins OpenAI’s board following a dramatic shakeup, as >>>> a tough regulatory environment pushes tech companies to board members with >>>> military expertise. >>>> >>>> By Cat Zakrzewski and Gerrit De Vynck >>>> Updated June 14, 2024 at 12:16 p.m. EDT|Published June 13, 2024 at 5:00 >>>> p.m. ED >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The board appointment of retired Army Gen. Paul M. Nakasone comes as >>>> OpenAI tries to quell criticism of its security practices. (Ricky >>>> Carioti/The Washington Po >>>> >>>> OpenAI has tapped former U.S. Army general and National Security Agency >>>> director Paul M. Nakasone to join its board of directors, the continuation >>>> of a reshuffling spurred by CEO Sam Altman’s temporary ousting in November. >>>> >>>> Nakasone, a Trump appointee who took over the NSA in 2018 and was asked >>>> to continue in the role under Biden, will join the OpenAI board’s Safety >>>> and Security Committee, which the company stood up in late May to evaluate >>>> and improve its policies to test models and curb abuse. >>>> >>>> The appointment of the career Army officer, who was the longest-serving >>>> leader of U.S. Cybercom, comes as OpenAI tries to quell criticism of its >>>> security practices — including from some of the company’s current and >>>> former employees who allege the ChatGPT-maker prioritizes profits over the >>>> safety of its products. The company is under increasing scrutiny following >>>> the exodus of several key employees and a public letter that called for >>>> sweeping changes to its practices. >>>> >>>> “OpenAI occupies a unique role, facing cyber threats while pioneering >>>> transformative technology that could revolutionize how institutions combat >>>> them," Nakasone told the Post in a statement. "I am looking forward to >>>> supporting the company in safeguarding its innovations while leveraging >>>> them to benefit society at large.” >>>> >>>> Amid the public backlash, OpenAI has said it is hiring more security >>>> engineers and increasing transparency about its approach to securing the >>>> systems that power its research. Last week, a former employee, Leopold >>>> Aschenbrenner, said on a podcast that he had written a memo to OpenAI’s >>>> board last year because he felt the company’s security was “egregiously >>>> insufficient” to stop a foreign government from taking control of its >>>> technology by hacking. >>>> >>>> Security researchers have also pointed out that chatbots are vulnerable >>>> to “prompt injection” attacks, in which hackers can break in to a company’s >>>> computer system through a chatbot that is hooked up to its internal >>>> databases. Some companies also ban their employees from using ChatGPT out >>>> of concern that OpenAI may not be able to properly protect sensitive >>>> information fed into its chatbot. >>>> >>>> Nakasone joins OpenAI’s board following a dramatic board shake-up. Amid >>>> a tougher regulatory environment and increased efforts to digitize >>>> government and military services, tech companies are increasingly seeking >>>> board members with military expertise. Amazon’s board includes Keith >>>> Alexander, who was previously the commander of U.S. Cyber Command and the >>>> director of the NSA. Google Public Sector, a division of the company that >>>> focuses on selling cloud services to governments, also has retired generals >>>> on its board. (Amazon founder Jeff Bezos owns The Washington Post.) >>>> >>>> >>>> Until January, OpenAI had a ban on the use of its products for >>>> “military and warfare.” The company says the prohibition was removed to >>>> allow for military uses that align with its values, including disaster >>>> relief and support for veterans. >>>> “Our policies have consistently prohibited the use of our tools >>>> including our API and ChatGPT to ‘develop or use weapons, injure others or >>>> destroy property,’” OpenAI spokesperson Liz Bourgeois said. “That has not >>>> changed.” Nakasone did not respond to a request for comment. >>>> >>>> Nakasone brings deep Washington experience to the board, as the company >>>> tries to build a more sophisticated government relations strategy and push >>>> the message to policymakers that U.S. AI companies are a bulwark against >>>> China. >>>> “We want to make sure that American companies ... have the lead in the >>>> innovation of this technology, I think the disruptive technology of this >>>> century,” Nakasone said when asked about AI during a recent Post Live >>>> interview. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable. List rules: >>>> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt. Unsubscribe, change to >>>> digest mode, or change password by emailing >>>> [email protected]. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable. List rules: >>>> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt. Unsubscribe, change to >>>> digest mode, or change password by emailing >>>> [email protected]. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable. List rules: >>>> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt. Unsubscribe, change to >>>> digest mode, or change password by emailing >>>> [email protected]. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable. List rules: >>>> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt. Unsubscribe, change to >>>> digest mode, or change password by emailing >>>> [email protected]. >>>> >>>> -- > Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable. List rules: > https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt. Unsubscribe, change to > digest mode, or change password by emailing > [email protected]. >
-- Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable. List rules: https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing [email protected].
