Stewart, I'll not speak of the specifics in your message to Peter, mine to him off list also says that he has an answer (although there are other questions - but involving ancient vocal music).
I write specifically to say that your message exemplifies the purpose of a list such as this. A dialog of argument, in the proper sense. Proposition and response, leading to synthesis or polite disagreement. I would retract my 8th June comment that there is no solution, excepting only that we will never know how the ancients played. But solution doesn't mean perfect, very good guesses can be taken as "true enough". I concur with your comments, and Peter's. I confess that I look at the parsing of the lyrics when reading the Tab, but I can also say (as one who has sung everything, and in every fashion) that often the syllables don't match. Sometimes a bit of recasting of the words will take care of that, but more often in old texts it is just a matter of the printing. Play and sing it with the sense of the song, you will probably be right. The old printers didn't have perfect alignment. Best, Jon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:07 PM Subject: My Sweetest Lesbia > Dear Peter, > > I think I disagree with my suggestion too. Your message to Jon has > prompted me to have another look at Campion's "My sweetest Lesbia". > I have re-read what you wrote on 8th June (copied below), and I > accept your solution. > > One thing is clear: if there are mensuration signs like C slash and > "3", the value of the crotchet and minim does not stay the same; it > is the pulse or beat which stays the same. This means that the pulse > (represented at the start of the song by a dotted minim) stays > constant, but after the C slash that pulse is notated in minims (not > semibreves, as I had suggested on 8th June). > > You are right to consider the meaning of the words: "ever-during > night" suggests a longer time than normal, so it would be > appropriate for > the music to appear to slow down at this point. If you followed my > original suggestion of dotted minim = semibreve, the music would > seem to speed up, producing a frantic end to the verse, instead of > the suitably serene end produced by dotted minim = minim. > > I think Jon is wrong to suggest (as he does on 8th June) that there > is no answer to your question. You have answered it correctly > yourself. > > Best wishes, > > Stewart. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter Nightingale" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 8:00 PM > Subject: Re: My Sweetest Lesbia > > > > Jon, > > > > I never responded to your message. I've listened to the several > versions > > of the song and looked at the the lyrics and the voice part. It > seems > > "obvious" that there are no 3-2 or 3-1 changes going on here, but > 1-2 > > changes -- in contrast to Fire, Fire. Let's say the song starts > in 3/4, > > then occasionally it goes to 3/2 and even 4/2, but at all times > the time > > it takes to play two crotchets equals that for a minim. I would > go > > further than you and say that anything more complicated than > hemiolas (if > > that is what technically they are) seems far fetched. It may be a > matter > > of taste, but unless I misunderstood, I think that I disagree with > > Stewarts' suggestion. > > > > Regards, > > Peter. > > > > > > On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Jon Murphy wrote: > > > > > Peter, > > > > > > I don't think there is an answer to your question. I have seen > it in the > > > theoreticals both ways - maintain the beat of the note, or the > time of the > > > measure. In the absence of a CD by Campion, which might be hard > to find, I'd > > > say that your feeling for the sound should be as good as anyone > else's. > > > Tempo is a bitch when looking at old tabs, and even modern > score. Is 6/8 > > > really 2/2 played with triplets? > > > > > > Best, Jon > > > > > > > > > > > Message on 8th June: > > Dear Stewart, > > I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. As a matter of > fact, > this is precisely how I count Campions' Fire, Fire (Third Book of > Ayres, > XX). However, there is a difference: Fire, Fire goes from C to 3 > and, > whereas My sweetest Lesbia goes from 3 to C-slash. The implication > is > that there is no difference between C and C-slash. Or do you have a > different solution of Fire? > > One of the possibilities I mentioned, which would have made C and > C-slash > different, was to play the C-slash section twice as fast as you > suggest. > However, in terms of the music and the lyrics this makes no sense at > all: > according to my taste, "night" might be longer than "sleep", "paine" > and > "loue", or the same, but not shorter. > > Thanks and regards, > Peter. > > PS If anyone is interested, I have tab versions of both songs. > > > > > >
