>++Yes, this is a nice design, but too large for me. I >assume you mean
symmetry
>with respect to the plane of reflection perpendicular to the >top. What
would be the
>harm in making the right side the mirror image of the left? >Is there some
advantage
>to an asymmetrical body?
Marion, actually the Jauch is relatively small with a string length of
70.1 cm.
That's exactly what I did, mirror the two sides, so from the perspective
of a centre line, the two sides are the same exact shape.
This is what I have been referring to, calling it perfect symmetry, but
as I have seen, maybe this is not the correct way to describe it.
Personally I can see know acoustical advantage to an asymmetrical shape.
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: May 24, 2005 11:09 AM
> To: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> guy_and_liz Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> LUTELIST <[email protected]>,
> Manolo Laguillo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
>
> > When it comes to >the physical
> >construction of musical instrument, high symmetry means >something
> relatively boring and the
> >lowest symmetry possible is necessary to construct an >instrument, such
as
> a lute, that is designed
> >to emphasize the different roles of the left and right hands,
>respectively
> Marion,
> I think it might be wise to get back to the issue at hand, as it
> applies to the construction and conception of musical instruments.
> Manolo, said symmetry is a cheap trick, uninteresting yet, symmetry
is
> used in, the lute, guitar, and violin templates of Stradivari, and Arnault
> De Zwolle's work containing a drawing of a lute, with an accompanying
> description of the method used to draw it. It includes the whole body of
> geometry and principles of proportionality which would be used to develop
> all new instruments created during the Renaissance, including the violin.
> I was delighted to finally see a lute body, which was symmetrical.
>
> ++Yes, you are right when applied to the lute body which can have
> a plane of symmetry, this part can in theory be completely symmetrical
> with respect to that plane. It is the nut and peg box that break the
symmetrical
> pattern. Taken by itself the body can be be symmetrical.
>
> I know of some lutemakers who copy every defect of proportion. The
> problem with this is, it ends up compounding the defect, and as a result
and
> new lute is twice as distorted as the original.
>
> ++Hence the importance of seeing the original plans which the museum
> in Cremona has preserved.
>
> I have already made a mould for the Yale Jauch using symmetry and it
> looks very pleasing. The challenge will be to actually translate the
final
> outcome of construction, in which case Manolo will be pleased to know, it
> probably won't be perfectly symmetrical.
>
> ++Yes, this is a nice design, but too large for me. I assume you mean
symmetry
> with respect to the plane of reflection perpendicular to the top. What
would be the
> harm in making the right side the mirror image of the left? Is there some
advantage
> to an asymmetrical body?
>
> Michael Thames
> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "guy_and_liz Smith"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTELIST" <[email protected]>; "Manolo
Laguillo"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 10:55 AM
> Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
>
>
> > "Perfect symmetry" is a term that is too vague to use in scientific
> descriptions. I don't know
> > what it means unless it refers to the sphere, which allows all possible
> symmetry operations.
> > It's not that highly symmetric objects don't exist in nature, nor does
it
> have anything to do with
> > the second law of thermodynamics on a molecular level. "Perfect
symmetry"
> as it relates to building
> > lutes and other stringed instruments could be defined as belonging to
the
> C1 point group (which is
> > to say that the instrument is asymmetrical). To find higher symmetry, it
> is necessary to look at simpler instruments, such as a hand bell, which
has
> C-infinty-v symmetry. When it comes to the physical
> > construction of musical instrument, high symmetry means something
> relatively boring and the
> > lowest symmetry possible is necessary to construct an instrument, such
as
> a lute, that is designed
> > to emphasize the different roles of the left and right hands,
> respectively.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: May 24, 2005 8:57 AM
> > To: guy_and_liz Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, LUTELIST
> <[email protected]>,
> > Manolo Laguillo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
> >
> > >Crystals are only symmetrical to a point. It's a >convenient and
> reasonably good approximation, but >perfect symmetry runs afoul of the
> second law of >thermodynamics, leading to things like point defects >and
> dislocations
> >
> > OK, so I'm getting the idea that perfect symmetry does not exist in
> nature, such a piety.
> > However, has anyone read the book by Dr. Masaru Emoto, The hidden
> Messages in Water.
> > Dr. Emoto, has found and photographed the formation of water
crystals.
> Polluted water, or water subjected to negative thoughts, forms incomplete,
> asymmetrical patterns, with dull colors, and water from clear springs,
> exposed to positive thoughts forms brilliant complex, symmetrical, and
> colorful snowflake patterns.
> > In Buddhist, and Hindu art, one finds perfect symmetry in the form
of
> mandalas, which represent perfect Enlightenment.
> > Is it wrong for humans to try to achieve perfect symmetry? It seems
> nature is trying.
> > Michael Thames
> > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: guy_and_liz Smith
> > To: LUTELIST ; Manolo Laguillo ; Michael Thames
> > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 8:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
> >
> >
> > Crystals are only symmetrical to a point. It's a convenient and
> reasonably good approximation, but perfect symmetry runs afoul of the
second
> law of thermodynamics, leading to things like point defects and
> dislocations.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Michael Thames
> > To: LUTELIST ; Manolo Laguillo
> > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:34 AM
> > Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
> >
> >
> > >b. Symmetry is one of the least interesting forms of >composition.
It
> is
> > >a cheap trick, and it is wise to avoid it. BTW, the nazi
>architects
> > >(Albert Speer...) used it a lot
> >
> > Interesting to note, the best lutemakers of the ren. were
> Germans.
> >
> > > Actually symmetry does not exist in nature, but >something much
> more
> > >exciting: the appearance of it, without really being it
> >
> > I'm not sure, but would venture to say, symmetry exists in ice
> crystal,
> > and crystal formations?
> >
> > Michael Thames
> > www.ThamesClassicalGuitarscom
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Manolo Laguillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTELIST"
> > <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 9:38 AM
> > Subject: was: Stradivari lute? now: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
> >
> >
> > > Sorry, but I can't agree with the two ideas expressed below by
> Michael
> > > Thames:
> > >
> > > 1. poor workmanship on the part of old lutemakers
> > >
> > > 2. symmetry equals to perfection, therefore asymmetry =
> imperfection.
> > >
> > > Because:
> > >
> > > a. They had a superior craftmanship level, and could have done the
> lutes
> > > perfectly symmetrical if they would have the desire and need to do
> so.
> > > We only have to look at the perfectly spherical stone "balls"
> present in
> > > so many buildings of the Renaissance. The sphere is, by the way,
the
> > > representation of absolute symmetry...
> > >
> > > b. Symmetry is one of the least interesting forms of composition.
It
> is
> > > a cheap trick, and it is wise to avoid it. BTW, the nazi
architects
> > > (Albert Speer...) used it a lot.
> > > Actually symmetry does not exist in nature, but something much
more
> > > exciting: the appearance of it, without really being it.
> > > In the japanese aesthetic there is a word I can't remember now for
> this
> > > idea of being perfect precisely through imperfection.
> > >
> > > All this relates with something of paramount importance in the
> > > interpretation of early music, that we all know, and that I am
going
> to
> > > express with an example: if we have a measure with 4 /\ /\ , each
> one
> > > has to be played with a different accent, stressed differently.
> This is
> > > difficult for us because we were born in an epoch where everything
> is
> > > mechanic, and handmade objects are luxury... Remember William
> Morris?
> > >
> > > I will dare to recommend you a book, Michael, that you could enjoy
a
> > > lot: Lewis Mumford, Technics and Civilization.
> > >
> > > Saludos,
> > >
> > > Manolo Laguillo
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael Thames wrote:
> > >
> > > >>Lundberg did not say that lute bellies weren't symmetrical,
>just
> that
> > the
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >lute
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>as a whole doesn't have a clear center line.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Without getting lundbergs book out, he says something
to
> the
> > > >effect that there isn't a straight line on the lute except the
> strings.
> > > > I guess it depends on how you look at it. I prefer to think
> in
> > terms
> > > >that the lute has a center line and the neck is tilted.
> > > > From my experience with the few different lutes I've made,
the
> > > >originals are not perfectly symmetrical. For many reasons age,
> stress
> > etc.
> > > >poor workmanship. For this reason alone, coming across
Stadivari's
> > template,
> > > >and seeing first hand that lutes were conceived from the
beginning
> to be
> > > >perfectly symmetrical cleared up at least for me some of the
> mystery.
> > > > I know many makers will copy a lute with every distortion,
and
> > > >imperfection, it seems for me that this might not be the way to
do
> it.
> > > > I wonder if these early makers had some mind set to stop
just
> short
> > of
> > > >perfection?
> > > >Michael Thames
> > > >www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Garry Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >To: "lute list" <[email protected]>
> > > >Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 5:54 AM
> > > >Subject: RE: Stradivari lute?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>-----Original Message-----
> > > >>>From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >>>Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:55 AM
> > > >>>To: Lute net
> > > >>>Subject: Stradivari lute?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I noticed a lute template of the belly ( 11 course French
lute)
> made
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >from
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>>thick paper, folded down the middle to from the centre line,
> > indicating
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >to
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>>me, that lutes were originally conceived to be symmetrically
> prefect,
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >and do
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>>in fact have a clear centre line, contrary to what Lundberg
says.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>[GB>]
> > > >>
> > > >>Lundberg did not say that lute bellies weren't symmetrical, just
> that
> > the
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >lute
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>as a whole doesn't have a clear center line.
> > > >>
> > > >>If you'll look at page 76 ( Practicum One: Making the Form ) in
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >"Historical Lute
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>Construction", you'll notice that Lundberg's instructions
coincide
> with
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >what you
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>describe above.
> > > >>
> > > >>I'm sure that Martin Shepherd (first name out of the brain this
> > morning.)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >or
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>someone else can probably give a concise description of the
> "asymmetry"
> > of
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >the
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>lute. It's too early for me; I need more coffee >:)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>To get on or off this list see list information at
> > > >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
