>Now my question: has anyone made a lute according to >Strad's plans?
>If not, Michael, if you have copies of the plans, maybe >you could be the
first
>one?
Hi Marion,
I don't have the actual plans, or template, and didn't think to
ask anyone, at the time while I was there in Cermona. As Trovosky points out
they probably won't give a Mickey Mouse luthier such as I, access, anyway. I
only have a book with photos.
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Vance Wood"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
> For a lute to be functional, it must be asymmetric with respect to all
> symmetry operations. There is no reason for the body of a lute to appear
> asymmetric. Lutes are not like some guitars with cutouts for the trebble
> notes. The body (minus the bridge) can look symmetric from
> from the outside but the neck and nut will always be assymetric due to
> the difference between the trebble and bass strings. I would think
> it more efficient to make a lute (or any other object) with a symmetric
body
> from a construction point of view whether the construction takes place now
> or 500 years ago. Any planned departure from symmetry should be
> justified as it complicates the construction process. I think we agree on
this
> and if there is some point of disagreement I am not sure what it is. It is
not
> clear what is left to debate. It seems to me that everyone has said mostly
> the same thing or at least something consistent indifferent words.
>
> Now my question: has anyone made a lute according to Strad's plans?
> If not, Michael, if you have copies of the plans, maybe you could be the
first
> one?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Jun 2, 2005 2:31 PM
> To: Vance Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lute list <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
>
> Vance,
> I know you want to debate this thing, but I know lutes bodies, with
> their necks are asymmetrical.
> Michael Thames
> www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list"
> <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:37 PM
> Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
>
>
> > I look forward to that but let's make sure we are on the same page. I
am
> > looking at symmetricality in Lute making as two combined symmetrical
> element
> > joined together in an asymmetrical configuration. In other words the
> center
> > line of the neck is not parallel or continuous with the center line of
the
> > body, belly, sound board assembly. I do not argue the symmetricality
of
> > the Lute bodies you have been discussing, I am arguing the total
> > symmetricality of the assembled Lute where, as Lundberg says, is
> > asymmetrical in regards to the alignment of neck to body. Myself I
would
> > like to believe that they are and should be symmetrical, it seems more
> > logical and is much easier to manufacture/craft. But if the evidence
> points
> > the other direction then we are left with either ignoring it and doing
it
> > our way, trying to find out why this alignment occurs, or just copy it
in
> > our instruments with the caveat; this is the way a Lute is supposed to
be
> > made.
> >
> > Vance Wood.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list"
> <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:23 AM
> > Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
> >
> >
> > > >You are still missing the point. The moulds my be >symmetrical, and
> the
> > > >necks symmetrical, but do the plans and drawings show a >symmetrical
> > > >alignment between both elements?
> > >
> > > The only lutes that could possibly be symmetrical, neck and
body,
> > > would be early 6 course lutes at the turn of the 16th century, of
which
> > none
> > > have survived in original condition, or at least were told. The Gerle
> > looks
> > > very symmetrical neck, and body from pictures, but I don't have the
> plans
> > > for that one to compare.
> > >
> > > Since this thread has revolved around Strad's 11 course lute
> > template,
> > > of the body only, I think Vance, it might be you who are missing the
> > point.
> > >
> > > I have a pretty good collection of lute plans by various people.
> > When
> > > I have some spare time I'll draw up some body shapes and compare the
> > mirror
> > > images on a number of them, at least there will be less speculation,
and
> > > more facts. I can then post my findings.
> > > Michael Thames
> > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list"
> > > <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:34 PM
> > > Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
> > >
> > >
> > > > You are still missing the point. The moulds my be symmetrical, and
> the
> > > > necks symmetrical, but do the plans and drawings show a symmetrical
> > > > alignment between both elements?
> > > >
> > > > Vance Wood.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: "lute list" <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> > > "Vance
> > > > Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 12:44 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >Vance said
> > > > > > The point here is that the
> > > > > >use of asymmetry was to create the illusion of symmetry.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why would anyone want the illusion of symmetry, when one can
> have
> > > the
> > > > > real thing? Stradivari obviously thought very highly of symmetry,
> > since
> > > > all
> > > > > of his moulds are symmetrical.
> > > > >
> > > > > Michael Thames
> > > > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > To: "lute list" <[email protected]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 9:28 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > After reading Mr. Lundbergs book several times I have come to
the
> > > > > conclusion
> > > > > > that he must be correct. He claims to have examined actual
> > > instruments
> > > > > that
> > > > > > all show the same asymmetry, the neck cocked toward the base
side
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > Lute. He goes on to explain that the body does indeed have a
> center
> > > > line,
> > > > > > and the neck does indeed have a center line, but the
juxtaposition
> > of
> > > > both
> > > > > > elements does not extend the two center lines so that they
become
> > one
> > > > > common
> > > > > > center line. Can anyone site an historical instrument where a
> > common
> > > > > center
> > > > > > line is obvious?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I realize the argument can be made that the instruments have
> become
> > > > warped
> > > > > > and twisted over time but knowing wood as I do, if that were so,
> > there
> > > > > would
> > > > > > be evidence in a dramatic distortion of both the treble and base
> > sides
> > > > of
> > > > > > the bowel. The base side would show evidence of compression
> causing
> > > an
> > > > > > obvious kink near the joint of the neck and bowel. The treble
> side
> > > > would
> > > > > > show evidence of separation at the same point understanding that
> > wood
> > > > this
> > > > > > old cannot be stretched, it only cracks and separates.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Vance Wood.
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 3:15 PM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ron Fletcher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi Michael,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Going back to your initial posting about lute symmetry. In
> the
> > > > > > > > Stradivari workshop on your recent trip to Italy, you saw a
> > paper
> > > > > > > > template for a lute body, folded along the centre-line.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is it clear how this template was used?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I can see many possibiltys, including the possiblity of other
> > > > templates
> > > > > > > now missing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Perhaps this was part of a study, and represents another
makers
> > > work;
> > > > > > > are there any strad-made lutes surviving to compare this
> template
> > > to?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sorry, i suppose lots of this has been discussed already, I
have
> > > been
> > > > > > > skipping lots of email the past few weeks, too much apparant
> > > flaming,
> > > > > > > not enough time to indulge in reading, let alone responding.
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > dana emery
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > > > > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
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>
