And of course there is BWV 1025 the Weiss sonata, to which Bach apparently (the case is still not closed) transcribed and added a violin part. It is always possible that Weiss provided the lute part in pitch notation (on grand staff), but if not Bach made the transription. The question in my mind is whether Weiss also composedthe violin part, andthat in Dresden we have the lute part for a sonata for violin and lute.
The c-minor (originally d-minor???),BWV 999, comes down in just one source, a manuscript copied by J.P. Kellner, an organist. The Kellner who was active in lute and gutar music was another person, David K. ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Schall To: Michael Thames ; Lutelist Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:13 PM Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of Perrine I've seen the manuscripts. If memory serves correctly it's in the collection Fetis - maybe you can watch it on the site of alamire? The c-minor prelude is one of the very few pieces which are certainly lute pieces. I think all musicologists will agree to that as well as to the g-minor suite (pour Schouster) being an arrangement intended to be played on the lute (although requireing the contra-g which is unusual. Falckenhagen just and pragmatically has put it an octave higher). The arrangements by Falckenhagen and Weyrauch are very interesting and highly recommended to every lover of the baroque lute. I think they are available from TREE edition. A good edition of Bach's lute work is done by Stefan Lundgren (I'm preferring his version over others although he uses a 14th course which I don't have). Best wishes Thomas Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 19:24 schrieben Sie: > >Hi Michael, > > > >please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never >wrote music in > >tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well >as the lute version > >(pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in >standard notation > > Hi Thomas, Then I stand corrected. However according to Toyohiko > Satoh, he mentions that the c-minor prelude is an original lute piece by > Bach. I remember reading somewhere, and I don't know where, that the > original source for this is from Kellner's MS and it exists only in > tablature. As for the rest of Bach's lute music, I wish not to go there, > as I've heard every angle of this, and we could go on forever. > Michael Thames > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:26 AM > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book > of Perrine > > > Hi Michael, > > > > please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in > > tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute version > > (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard > > notation. > > > > The contemporary tablatures for the baroque lute were done by > > Falckenhagen > > and > > > Weyrauch. > > > > To name just one (modern) edition of lute music in a single stave I would > > suggest Chilesotti's collections (among many others). > > > > Actually I don't think th eway you notate music isn't important. Every > > system > > > has advantages and disadvantages. I personally am reading continuo from > > the > > > bass-clef, for solo music I am preferring tablature. The notation in > > "grand > > > staff" is uncomfortable but actually no problem to read, too. > > > > As I've read the last issue of "the Lute" I had a big laugh about the > > table of > > > content because I think MO is quite famous for his preference for pitch > > notation. His article is - as always - a entertaing (although > > occassionally > > > annoying) mixture of information and agitation. I wondered that the Lute > > Society published such an article. But it's interesting and maybe leads > > to > > a > > > discussion (whatever the sense of this may be). > > > > Best wishes > > Thomas > > > > Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 17:05 schrieb Michael Thames: > > > I am indeed ignorant of many things. However, as I've said, I do take > > issue > > > > with so called scholars making derogatory remarks, concerning the well > > > established site reading practices, of guitarists for the past 2 > > centuries, > > > > which astonishingly, you called a recent development. I did sense a > > > haughtiness in your remarks, which compelled me to respond. > > > > > > >Julio da Modena, Byrd, Bull, Couperin, Chambonieres, >J.S.Bach, > > Vivaldi, > > > > > three anonymous composers from the >18th-century (formerly in Bob > > > > Spencer's collection) all wrote >lute music in pitch notation using > > two > > > > > staves > > > > > > I really don't know what to say to this. I'm speechless! > > > To suggest that these composers wrote lute music, is again > > astonishing! > > > > The only original lute music Bach wrote was in Tablature, and I > > think > > > > by now Mr.Ness, most scholars accept Bach wrote none. As far as Byrd > > goes, > > > > do you include lute arrangements for keyboard, lute music? As far as > > > Couperin, do you also include writing in the style of lute music, lute > > > music? as far as Julio da Modena, and Chambonieres goes I've never > > > even heard of them, as I said before I am ignorant. However if I follow > > > your train of thought, logic would conclude that these composers most > > > likely > > did > > > > some kind of arrangements for lute as well. I'm sure one can find > > isolated > > > > cases in which lute music was written in grand staff, but not by a > > single > > > > major composer or lutenist! To suggest this sets a president, is the > > same > > > > as you saying modern guitar notation is a recent development, very > > > misleading! and a huge stretch. > > > > > > > Universally lute music in pitch notation uses the grand >staff, > > Even > > > > > many guitarists today advocate guitar music on >two staves, and a > > recent > > > > > edition (ca. 2002) of arrangements >of Bach for solo guitar is > > > > notated for ease in reading on two >staves. Maybe you'd better start > > practicing > > > > > your bass clef, >before it's too late. Actually guitar notation on a > > > > single stave >is a fairly recent phenomenon, dating from the late > > > > 18th->/early 19th century > > > > > > I don't play any instrument which would require me to read bass > > > clef, but thanks for your inappropriate advice just the same. Again, > > > if > > I > > > > follow your logic you are simply saying that guitar notation has been > > the > > > > norm from the very beginning and conception of the guitar itself , the > > > " late 18th century, a fairly redundant remark. That's the same as > > > saying violin music has only been around since the invention of the > > > violin. Who established so called "universal lute music" I've never > > > heard of such a term. > > > > > > >Do you know of any historical lute music written in pitch >notation on > > a > > > > > single staff? Except for guitar editions,I don't >even know any > > modern > > > > > editions of lute music on a single >stave. Do you? And it's virtually > > > > impossible to notate >baroque lute music on a single stave > > > > > > I know of zero, lute music written on any staff. > > > The point is, who are you making these editions for, lutenists, and > > > guitarists or some imaginary scholar or keyboard entity? This might > > > well satisfy your academic desires, but is hardy practible, in today's > > > world. Might I suggest, you come down off your high horse, and instead > > > of suggesting guitarists conform to your way of thinking, you might > > > conform > > to > > > > thier's. Michael Thames > > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Arthur Ness > > > To: Michael Thames > > > Cc: lute list > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 2:54 AM > > > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the > > Book > > > > of Perrine > > > > > > > > > I think you just demonstrate your ignorance when you write things > > > like this, Michael. And snide, rude remarks just create a hostile > > environment, > > > > and weaken your argument, if you had one. You do not help your advocacy > > of > > > > guitar music with such an attitude. No one here is attempting to > > ridicule > > > > the guitar and guitar music, or even prove the superiority of lute > > > music over guitar music. Unlike the frequent complaint of playing Bach > > > on a concert grand piano, I have never even heard purists complain > > > about > > playing > > > > lute music on guitar. And the complaint is a valid one, although I do > > not > > > > subscribe to it. > > > > > > Julio da Modena, Byrd, Bull, Couperin, Chambonieres, J.S.Bach, > > Vivaldi, > > > > three anonymous composers from the 18th-century (formerly in Bob > > Spencer's > > > > collection) all wrote lute music in pitch notation using two staves. I > > > know of four or five large manuscripts in Darmstadt, Stockholm,St. > > > Petersburg, Wroclaw, containing lute music in pitch notation. And many > > > others are doubtlessly waiting to be disclosed when James Tyler > > > finishes his work. > > > > > > Do you know of any historical lute music written in pitch notation on > > a > > > > single staff? Except for guitar editions,I don't even know any modern > > > editions of lute music on a single stave. Do you? And it's virtually > > > impossible to notate baroque lute music on a single stave. > > > > > > Universally lute music in pitch notation uses the grand staff, Even > > many > > > > guitarists today advocate guitar music on two staves, and a recent > > edition > > > > (ca. 2002) of arrangements of Bach for solo guitar is notated for ease > > in > > > > reading on two staves. Maybe you'd better start practicing your bass > > clef, > > > > before it's too late. Actually guitar notation on a single stave is a > > > fairly recent phenomenon, dating from the late 18th-/early 19th > > > century. > > > > > > AJN. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Michael Thames > > > To: Mathias R=F6sel ; Arthur Ness > > > Cc: lute list > > > Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 1:34 PM > > > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- > > > the Book of Perrine > > > > > > > For centuries lute music has been notated on two staves > > > > > > Yes, and I chart daytime stars, in my spare time. > > > Michael Thames > > > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "Mathias R=F6sel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Cc: "lute list" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 10:47 AM > > > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- > > > the Book of Perrine > > > > > > > Dear Mathias, > > > > > > > > I had to join that group in order to see Doug Towne's work. But > > > > I cannot > > > > > > open the files. Do I have to buy Fronimo to do that? How much > > > does > > it > > > > cost? Wouldn't it be more convenient to have them in *.PDF format, > > > like wayne does? > > > > > > > I am unaware of any discussions about publishing lute music in > > guitar > > > > notation rather than the standard lute notation on the grand staff. > > NB > > > > the proper term is NOT "keyboard." That's an obsession from the guitar > > > world. (Perhaps disease is an exaggeration.<g>) For centuries lute > > music > > > > has been notated on two staves. > > > > > > > I find Matanya's article in the current issue of The Lute to be > > > > rather > > > > > > shallow. He does not discuss all of the relevant issues, and > > > misses some important milestones in the publication of lute music. > > > Some of the most significant editions are left unmentioned in his > > > article, including the recent A-R Editions, CNRS, Die Tabulatur, Ut > > > Orpheus (Italy), etc. > > > > > > > He does not identify that Russian piece, which is Dowland's > > Farewell > > > > Fantasia. Apparently he fears it might pale in comparison with Mrs. > > > Poulton's work, and practically everyone else who ever transcribed > > it. > > > > And why is there no mention of lute music in pitch notation done by > > Julio > > > > da Modena, Byrd, Couperin, Chambonieres, Vivaldi, J. S. Bach, et al.? > > > > > > > To picture Gombosi's commentary of the Schrade system is a bald > > > > attempt to > > > > > > sensationalize his point ofview. Very few editors of lute music > > > followed Schrade's example, including his own pupils. And Schrade > > > didn't even respond to Gombosi's review. One Polish edition used the > > > Schrade method, and five years later the editors withdrew the edition > > > and > > replaced > > > > it with one of the same music done up in conventional lute notation on > > the > > > > grand staff. Since the Gombosi review appeared (1930s) hundreds of > > edition > > > > of lute music have appeared, and surely not more than four or five use > > the > > > > Schrade method, including one horrendous edition of the Narvaez book > > > for guitar (the editor obviously knew nothing about early music). > > > > > > > ajn > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Mathias R=F6sel" > > > > Cc: lute list > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 1:45 PM > > > > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide > > > > first- the > > > > > > Book of Perrine > > > > > > > "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > > > > There are two books of lute music by Perrine (first name > > > > > unknown). > > > > > > Civiol's > > > > > > > > web page just gives the introductory text with English > > > > > translation. > > > > > > > > That is correct. I'm sorry for my erroneous posting. It's > > Douglas > > > > > Towne who reintabulated Perrine into Fronimo tab. It is > > > > accessible > > at > > > > http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fronimo_editor/files/Tablatures/ > > > > > > Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on > > two > > > > staves. > > > > > > > > That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch > > > > > notation. > > > > > > > > may I recommend at this occasion Matanya's very well informed > > > > article about historical pitch notation of lute music in the > > recent > > > > > issue of The Lute (British Lute Society's yearbook). If I got it > > > > right, arguments are still going on as for which notation (piano > > vs. > > > > > guitar) is more appropiate. > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > Mathias > > > > -- > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > -- > > > > -- > > Thomas Schall > > Niederhofheimer Weg 3 > > D-65843 Sulzbach > > 06196/74519 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > ab 15.7. neue Adresse: > > Wiesentalstrasse 41 > > CH-8355 Aadorf > > > > http://www.lautenist.de > > http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/ > > http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/ > > http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/ -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ab 15.7. neue Adresse: Wiesentalstrasse 41 CH-8355 Aadorf http://www.lautenist.de http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/ http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/ http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/ --
