Does anyone in the USA have an used Renaissance Lute CASE I can buy?
Denny Franco......St. Louis
______________________________________________________________
From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Juan Fco. Prieto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "lutelist"
<[email protected]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: String spacing. Please Help.
Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 04:25:35 -0400
>Juan, and all,
>
>I hesitate to say that the spacing of piano keys is irrelvant, but I'll
say it anyway. The pianist has an advantage not often noted. The keyboard
is in front of him (just once will I be PC and say "or her") and the music
is just above the keyboard. My main instrument is the Celtic harp (but the
same applies to the orchestral). Our music is off to the side, and our
reach for the strings is limited by arm length. A pianist with small hands
may not be able to play more than an octave chord, but his hands are
within view of his periferal vision. The standard spacing is valid there,
its limitation is minor.
>
>The lute and the harp are a different matter, and each of them is a
different matter. The guitar is also different, as the string length is
fixed so the instrument is always about the same size. But I may point out
that the string spacing is quite different on the various guitars (I've
been playing since 1947). The classical, or spanish, neck is a bit over 2
inches at the nut and the folk or western neck is a bit under (with the
country steel string a bit more under). The narrow neck guitars are played
with a lot of "double string" bridging by large fingers, having small
fingers I've always favored the wider spacing of the Spanish nut as I
can't bridge the narrow ones.
>
>On a piano it matters not if on hits the center of the key, as long as
one doesn't hit two key. But with strings the fingers become important. On
lute and guitar one can't look at one's fingers as they play, one has to
construct a muscle memory for the spacing - so the spacing becomes more
important for the individual. That also applies to the Irish penny
whistle, I know a man who is expert there (and I do play it also) and he
has to spend an hour of practice when switching from a low whistle to a
high one (the spacing is quite different as it is dictated by the air
column).
>
>The harp is similar to the piano, as each string is independant, but also
similar to the lute and guitar as the spacing involves finger size (if the
finger is thicker than the spacing then there can't be play without
"buzz".
>
>For David van Edwards, I finished the lute mold from your CD a long time
ago, and I shaved the slats for the ribs - but I dropped the project a
year and a half ago when I had a stroke. I will finish it, and send a
picture as I promised way back then. But it may be a bit of a while as a
few other projects got in the way as they were better for rehabilitating
the old left hand hit by the stroke.
>
>The Compleat Musician must be able to play without looking at the strings
(but not all of us can be that good). The piano makes it a bit easier with
the standard spacing and the spread of the keyboard in front of the
player. But that doesn't mean the lute should be a standard spacing, it
can't be when one condiders that the family includes the renaissance and
the baroque, the tenor and the bass. Nor can the harp be, a larger harp
(say 36 strings) involves an arm reach which can't be faked. The smaller
ones (mine is a double strung of 26 x 2 strings, so my fifty two strings
are in the space of a 26 string lap harp). I yet think the instrument and
the player are inseperable when it comes to spacing. After all, the
lutenists of old were far smaller people than those of today - if we
accept the population statistics as we know them from artifacts of the
earlier period. Henry VIII was considered a large man for his time, but at
age 12 I couldn't have fit into his armor as display!
> ed in the NYC Metropolitan Museum.
>
>Make an instrument that sounds like the original, but make it to fit your
hands.
>
>Best, Jon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Juan Fco. Prieto
> To: Jon Murphy ; lutelist ; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 5:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: String spacing. Please Help.
>
>
> Thanks also for your contribution, Jon. I agree mainly with you but I
think that pianists, fortunately, have not such problems -like us- : All
the keyboards are identical, regardless hands size, and this standard make
possible people to play around the world. No matter they have small hands
like Alicia de Larrocha or big ones, like Arcadi Volodos. That's another
world. My son plays piano and he was not worried thinking about the key
spacing on his recently bought instrument. He had only to choose model
(brand) and size. Even in the classical guitar world seems to be a more
standard spacing (about 11 mm. between strings at bridge) than for the
lute. I want to encourage you to keep enjoying the lute and the music for
a very long time.
> My best regards,
>
> Juan Fco. Prieto.
>
> P.S.: Jon, I'm also playing a 10c. lute I built from a kit in 1980.
This was a very funny adventure that ended happily: I was able to finish
it and... the lute sounds quite well! But in some moments I was afraid to
end with a pile of crashed woods, useful for barbecue. :-))
>
>
> 2007/5/27, Jon Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Juan,
>
> I hesitate to interject here, I am a very amateur lutenist (and
although I
> still receive the email from the lute-list I direct it to a separate
"inbox"
> as it is so voluminous). This came to me through the lute-builder
list.
>
> I am not a purist for the instrument, I play a kit version of what
Musikits
> called a "flat back lute". The designer was a guitarist with no
knowledge of
> lute (he made his G lute too long) as he really expected his
customers to
> buy it, and make it, as a "renaissance twelve string guitar". I made
the
> modifications, and I would call it an excellent "practice
instrument" rather
> than a "flat back lute". It has been played by several real
lutenists,
> including Ronn McFarlane, and judged a "sweet little instrument" - I
think
> we can call that "damned with faint praise".
>
> Yes, I ramble, but I'm coming to a point. I am currently making a
> renaissance lute from plans (for those who have heard this before
the delay
> was caused by a minor stroke - but all is well and I'll be getting
back to
> making the lute in the late summer). One thing I've learned from my
practice
> lute is that the course spacing at the nut should be defined by your
own
> fingers and hand, not by some classic formula. The stroke hit my
left side,
> and although I have full mobility of the left hand fingers I find I
don't
> get a clean touch on the courses and tend to "buzz" the next string.
My
> hands are small, in one sense, as the fingertips are narrow - but I
have a
> good reach (fifty five years on guitar). I intend to widen the
fingerboard
> (and the nut) on my new lute in order to make it fit my fingers,
instead of
> trying to make my fingers fit it. I'm sure that the "old boys" did
the same
> when they went to their lute builder. I'm also thinking of spreading
the
> bridge a bit, as my aging body hasn't the accuracy of placement it
used to
> have - but as my right hand isn't affected by the stroke I'll think
about
> that a bit.
>
> Basically what I'm saying is that "standards" have no place in
instruments,
> except the standards of the music and the play. There are too few
lutes
> preserved to show the individual differences that might have been
made for
> the particular lutenist. Find a separation that works for you, and
an easy
> way to do that is to make a "dummy" lute. Cut a piece of wood of
appropriate
> length and get a bunch of "zither pins" (as used for the folk harp,
or
> psaltery) to anchor the strings. Then make several nuts and bridges
to guide
> them. It won't be an instrument, as it won't have any resonance, but
it will
> let you try the feel of the spacings. (I'm going to do that before I
settle
> on my modifications to the plans I have - which I may also modify
from a 7
> course to an 8 course renaissance).
>
> As an old curmudgeon I would normally say that one should learn to
fit
> oneself to the standards, but as one who has been around a long time
I can
> recognize that each hand is different, and one can't change the
shape of
> one's fingers.
>
> Best, Jon
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Juan Fco. Prieto" < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >;
"lutelist"
> <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 2:29 AM
> Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: String spacing. Please Help.
>
>
> > My most sincere thanks, Chad, Bob, Clive and Sterling.
> > This copy you mentioned, Bob, may help me a lot. I could resend it
to my
> > luthier. On the other hand, I found a modern tendency to separate
a bit
> > more
> > the strings at the nut (more separation between the strings of a
course,
> > moving the octave to the right of the former position, as we can
see in
> > the
> > image linked below. Note the previous nut marks and the real
position of
> > the
> > octave. That's probably trying to minimize the *slapping effect?*)
> >
> > http://www.lute.net/instruments/blute0606/pegf.jpg
> >
> > My best regards for you,
> >
> > Juan Fco. Prieto.
> >
> > P.S.: Ah, Mr. Barto, let me say that your 7th Weiss recording is
> > breathtaking! One of the best of the Naxos series IMHO (I own till
now all
> > the 8 CD and it's really very hard to make such choice, because we
are
> > accoustomed to an always outstanding performance). The sound
itself is
> > even
> > richer than usual, with some " *microfluctuations*" in tone (Maybe
due to
> > the more flexibility of nylgut? I don't know, but your Rutherford
seems to
> > sound deeper and more *nasal*) that are adding a *plus* to the
final sonic
> > result. I have no words -my English is so limited...- to express
how this
> > recording impressed me. I noticed, also, the main tone is lowered
one half
> > tone respect to A=415. Don't stop recording, please.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2007/5/25, Chadwick Neal < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >>
> >> Hi Juan and Bob
> >> I am finishing a swan neck b lute, and I thought a
discussion
> >> would
> >> be nice also for the left hand. For the eight fingered courses I
have
> >> made
> >>
> >> two templates with an overall spacing of 57.5mm and the other at
59mm. I
> >> am
> >> unsure which to start with. I was reading some info on Linda
Sayce's
> >> website
> >> which she indicates that you can ask the hand to stretch along
the
> >> strings
> >>
> >> or across them but not both simultaneously. This is the only
online
> >> mention
> >> of the nut spacing that I have found.
> >>
> >>
> >> Chad
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Juan Fco. Prieto [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 5:51 AM
> >> To: lutelist; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ;
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] String spacing. Please Help.
> >>
> >> Dear lutenists and luthiers:
> >>
> >> I need to make a decision on string spacing matter for my next
baroque
> >> lute.
> >> Could you suggest me a "*standard*" string spacing (at nut and at
bridge)
> >> for a baroque lute (13 c., bass rider 707/770 string length)?
What about
> >> string distribution? Do you agree with this "*Roman Turovsky
law*"?:
> >>
> >> "Another important point is the bridge spacing (see above). It is
> >> recommended to have a distance of 15.5 cm between the top and the
bottom
> >> strings, even if you have small hands. This bridge spacing allows
one to
> >> play cleanly."
> >> ( http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html)
> >>
> >> My span is 23 cm. long (End of thumb to end of pinkie, hand
extended) A
> >> brief poll about your lute string spacing may help me.
> >> Thanks all the people in advance. And specially thanks to Roman
Turovsky
> >> for
> >> this -above mentioned- awesome web page.
> >> Greetings from Spain.
> >> --
> >> Juan Fco. Prieto.
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Juan Fco.
> >
> > --
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Juan Fco.
>--
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