Sorry the quotation levels seem to have been removed from my last message. I will try again.
Dear Martin Le 20 juin 07 =E0 10:45, Martin Shepherd a ecrit : > Dear Anthony, > > I have not tried KF for the 6th course but I am pretty certain it > would > be too stiff. The Lyons are also relatively stiff (it is high twist, but not double- twist like the Pistoy or the Venice), and perhaps it needs an octave string. In fact, Dan Larson says they are stiffer than Pistoys, so I suppose that is to be expected. However, I had not realised that there was a relation between stiff/ supple and tone, darker/brighter (all other things being equal). Larson says the Lyons are "specially processed in our shop to be soft and responsive. The gut is twisted in one direction to about 45 degrees for the optimum combination of durability and flexibility ... The Lyon string is not as flexible as the Pistoy string >>. I suppose I should have compared the Venice with the Pistoy. That would be a "more equal" comparison. However, I seem to recall Tom Knietzert of Bridgewood and Knietzert telling me that Venice were brighter than Pistoys, and that Aquila generally seem to be brighter than Gamut. > > As far as transitions from one course to another are concerned, I > think > you need to make the 5th course brighter, not compromise the 4th > course You are probably right, but I did not want to remove the Lyons at first. In fact the 5th with Venice is not overly dull. Obviously an octave string would make it brighter still. In fact the 4th with Venice does not seem to be darker than the ordinary low twist, just more tonally commples. Also,for some reason, perhaps relating to the nut, the low twist 4th tended to develop a buzz. This has not happened so far with the Venice. > by making it duller. Having an octave on the 5th but not the 4th can > sound very good (and I think is also historically appropriate, > especially for Cutting, Holborne, and even Dowland). > I seem to remember that Dowland at one point mentioned favouring unison. I thought that referred to the 5th course , but perhaps it was the 4th. Yes, it is true that an octave string with the Lyons would work, and possibly better than with the Venice, which is already quite bright. > I too had good experiences with the "Venice" strings from Aquila. I > used them for the 5th and 6th courses on a small lute (53.5cm) and > they > were fine. I must try them on a 60cm lute. I was trying them on my Gerle 7c 60 cms lute. They took some time to settle, and I think it true to say that the 5th course has less bass- drive without the Lyons, but it gains so much in brightness that I think it is preferrable, if you want a 5th in unison, and it could be an excellent choice for the 4th course, in any case, as it seems more tonally complex than the ordinary lower twist string? > > I am experimenting with "Real Gut" strings from George Stoppani and > Oliver Webber (see http://www.stoppani.co.uk/Real_Gut_Strings.htm). > Very brown in colour but surprisingly clear against the light, like > very > high twist strings. My impression so far is that they are about the > same in terms of flexibility as Larson's "pistoys". > Are they similar in sound to Larson's Pistoys (darker, brighter)? I know that Jacob likes these "real_Gut, as he also likes Pistoys, and I was thinking of trying them. I wrote to him, but he had sold all his production at a music fair (I think). This tends to show they must be a very good string indeed. I uderstand he does not make them regularly, so you have to catch him when he has some in stock. > I don't think the 5th is a particularly difficult course. All-gut > stringing simply gets more difficult as you go further down into the > bass. It is just that below the 5th, you can always balance the sound with a diapason. Indeed, I like the mix of darkish pistoy and octave; but I had decided on unison for my 5th, which made it more problematic. > String trueness and flexibility are essential, irrespective of > the tension used. Low tension can be useful because it means a > thinner > (and therefore more flexible) string, so there is a tradeoff between > what might be the best tension (for a wound string, say) and what > might > give the best sound for a gut string. It's also worth trading a > little > bit of volume for more sustain. On a 9c lute I went down to about 20N > for the 9th course, paired with a higher tension octave, and that > seemed > to give better results than a higher tension fundamental. On the 7th course I have a 1,85 gimped + 88HT string. Would it therefore be possible to replace the gimped with a similar sized Pistoy, but adding more tension with a thicker octave, I suppose I am being optimistic, here, and they might buzz together. Thank you, Martin, for your very helpful comments. Best regards Anthony > > Best wishes, > > Martin > > > Anthony Hind wrote: > >> Dear Martin >> Good to hear from you again. I am interested in your positive >> comments >> on the KF strings, although at present I will probably stay with gut, >> nevertheless on a rainy day, as you say, a good alternative could be >> very useful. >> How well might these KF strings work on the 6th course? I see that >> Jacob only seemed to be using them on the 5th, with gut below, and >> nylgut above. >> >> It is particularly interesting to me, in that my experiments with gut >> strings recently, were also to do with the 5th course, which I >> feel is >> a key string, that can be difficult to sort out, if you change to >> unison which is implied in your remark about the KF, "I'm not >> convinced it would necessarily be successful on a unison course" . >> >> Obviously, like most gut users, I prefer gut basses because of the >> more unified sound across all the strings, as opposed to gut tops and >> wirewounds, and also because of the greater clarity when the higher >> voices are not drowned by the basses (I know that using old >> copper-wounds can go a fair distance in damping them down). >> However, with a pair of Gamut Lyon, on my 5th course I still felt >> felt >> that there was a mild tonal break at that course (rather dark in >> comparison to the Base + octave below, and also to the smaller low >> twist strings above). An octave string would give greater brightness >> to the Lyons, and if I had adopted this (as you did with the KF) on >> the 5th course I think the problem would disappear. >> >> Also, when I say problem, it is relative. It is the most noticeable >> when playing a scale across courses, and much less obvious in music >> passages, but I felt it could still be heard. >> I thought of using Lyons on the 4th as well as the 5th, to darken 4th >> slightly and lessen the break between the two, but I quickly saw that >> Lyons and Pistoys could not be made down to the size of my 4th >> courses. >> >> Further searching, showed me that Venice by Aquila, which is a double >> twist (similar in this to Gamut Pistoys) can be made down to 0,7, >> so I >> thought that I might lessen the break, by darkening the 4th course >> slightly with that. Then I thought that perhaps using Venice both on >> the 5th and the 4th could be another step in the right direction. >> >> In fact, I was quite surprised, the Venice are much brighter than the >> Lyons, and there is almost no tonal break, at present, even when >> playing a scale across the courses. >> At first I thought, this should be completely positive. If people >> choose gut basses for greater unity, then those that give even more >> unity should surely be best. >> >> However, I noticed that with the loss of the lyons, I have lost a >> little bass thwack on the 5th (like a taut skin-covered drum). In >> some >> simple rhythmic pieces (say, Wilson's Wile), it gave an interesting >> onward pulse to the piece. >> This could well mean that they would be better than the Venice with >> octave strings. However, in a piece like The Countess of Pembroke's >> Funerals, where certain "chords" can played broken (see Lindberg >> <http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=BIS-CD-451>), >> then >> the greater unity of the Venice strings gives a certain improvement. >> >> I notice that the Venice are very supple (not like the Lyons) and I >> suppose this could be similar in effect to using low tension strings. >> At a very high tension a string might have its harmonics dampened >> simply through the greater stiffness this gives. Perhaps, a >> relatively >> supple string at a given tension also allows more harmonic >> development. >> ("The Venice strings possess a remarkable degree of elasticity and >> pliability, superior to any strings currently on the market. This >> means a surprisingly ready attack and good richness in upper >> overtones >> Aquila). >> What might your thoughts on that, Martin? It seems to join up with >> your previous topic on low-tension stringing. Except that low tension >> stringing might also leave the sound-board freer to reonate with >> harmonics, and I don't think that would be the case with high >> double-twist supple strings. >> >> Sorry, this is going a little like an advert for Aquila Venice, but I >> realise, as pointed out to me by David van Ooijen, that the sound of >> strings can depend on the lute, their tension, where you pluck them >> (rose, or bridge) and also the skill of the fingers that are plucking >> them. Perhaps, some fingers could pluck more high frequency component >> out of a Lyon string. Also, as I have already pointed out, a Lyon, >> accompanied by an octave string could indeed be better than the >> Venice, giving greater overall tonal stretch, than with a Venice >> (rather as you imply for the KF strings). However, I can't be sure >> about this, as I have not tried it. >> >> As always, I would be very interested in you remarks >> Best wishes >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> >> Le 19 juin 07 =E0 14:39, Martin Shepherd a ecrit : >> >>> Dear Anthony, >>> >>> As far as I know, the KF strings are made from PVF. How it is >>> that they >>> are less clear and have a less shiny surface I don't know. I >>> just wish >>> they made them in slightly smaller sizes - the thinnest is .95mm, >>> supposedly the equivalent of a gut string of about 1.1mm, though >>> I doubt >>> they are quite that heavy as I find they work well for a 5th >>> course on a >>> 60cm lute. I first came across one of these on one of Jacob's >>> lutes, >>> and thought it was a gut string - it looked and felt exactly like a >>> perfect, low-twist gut string. Even at this diameter, it is quite a >>> stiff string, with very little peg movement resulting in a big >>> change in >>> pitch, and it takes a while to settle, but once settled in it works >>> really well. I'm using it with an octave, of course, on 6c lute, >>> and >>> I'm not convinced it would necessarily be successful on a unison >>> course, >>> but it makes a very handy alternative for a gut string when you >>> want to >>> be "waterproof". >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> Anthony Hind wrote: >>> >>>> Several previous messages from synthetics users mention the >>>> advantage >>>> of using carbon strings on the 4th and 5th course to avoid wire- >>>> wounds. Nobody, in that discussion (i can recall) mentioned Savarez >>>> KF. Some answers contrasted carbon and nylgut, others carbon and >>>> gut. >>>> However, I notice that Jacob Heringman, who uses gut for recording, >>>> says,"For touring and performing, as opposed to recording, I use >>>> nylgut in the treble and mid-range, down to the fifth course >>>> (though >>>> I'm experimenting with Savarez KF strings for the fifth course >>>> at the >>>> moment), and the above-mentioned gut basses, with nylgut octaves." >>>> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/Heringman.html >>>> >>>> The KF might be an alternative then to carbon for the 5th also for >>>> synthetic users (Savarez, in fact, claim the KF are closer in sound >>>> and texture to gut), perhaps they have properties in between carbon >>>> and nylgut, hopefully, being less slippery than carbon? >>>> >>>> I have heard people calling them carbon strings, but I think >>>> they may >>>> be a fluor based product. >>>> I have never, tried them myself, but they might be a serious but >>>> more >>>> expensive alternative for the fifth course for someone using >>>> synthetics, who did not want to use wire-wounds, and who does not >>>> like carbon fishing line. >>>> Personally, I have been comparing Aquila Venice and Gamut Lyons >>>> on my >>>> 5th course, of which more, perhaps, later. Choices for 4th and 5th >>>> strings do seem to be critical for gut users too. >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> <http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html> >> >> > > --
