I'm afraid you don't appear to grasp the essentials (as the opening sentence and indeed paragraph of your reply [below] also demonstrates): in short, (and yet again) because the open strings of the 'renaissance' lute are tuned to different notes (except of course the double octave between the 1st and 6th course) then the semitone fret intervals on each string do not follow precisely the same sequence of diatonic and chromatic intervals as you move up the fingerboard (it is of course, as I trust you understand, the difference in width between chromatic and diatonic semitones that is the fundemental problem). As you modulate you therefore require different semitone frets to act as chromatic or diatonic semitones - hence why modulation is a difficulty - and particularly in your 'system' of using 'tastini'. I had assumed that you would also understand, but maybe not, that the situation on keyboard instruments with the octave divided into 12 semitones (equal in equal temperament but not in others such as your own 'meantone') is wholly different: here it is indeed possible to tune each note (key) to a unique pitch since there is nothing to restrict this as with fretted instruments (ie a straight fret running across a number of strings). Of course, even on keyboard instruments, as one moves away from the the key of C, the increasing number of sharps/flats soon increases the out of tunefulness - hence why so much effort was displayed by early musicians in coming up with a variety of temperaments. Finally, regarding double fret loops: a bit like Galilei and tastini, with the single exception of Mace (who mentions them but goes on to describe the usual double loop) the overwhelming preponderance of evidence is that double loops were the norm. Perhaps you assume that because single loops are a common practice nowadays this was the practice in earlier times............ I'm very sorry to say that much of what you write is simply personal affirmation (a bit like astrology) with scant regard for any actual evidence. MH
LGS-Europe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Martyn >> The point about modulation is that since you acknowlege your frets >> (including 'tastini') are necessarily straight, then the change of some >> notes from diatonic to chromatic intervals, consequent on the modulation, requires such a change since the modulation will very rarely (if ever in practice) effect all the fret positions on each of the courses the same. >> The beauty of meantone temperaments is that intervals in different keys have the same relative distances, as long as you stay away from the wolf. Music written for meantone temperament (if you accept such a thing, I do, looking at organs and wind instruments) does that, unless it's needed to make the wolf howl. This is why meantone temperaments work on fretted instruments in the first place, opposed to unequal temperaments like the Werckmeisters, but here colour in keys can be written into the piece by means of modulation. Time to go back to my broken-record argument I haven't seen disputed yet: How about organs in meantone? Don't they modulate the same way as retted instruments? Unless you have an organ with many split keys in the octave, they will modulate like we do. Theory is fine, but practice is where lute players then and now have to earn their money. Playing as much in tune as possible is part of the requirements. I see no other way than moving my frets to match the organ. >> Yes, I'm afraid wether or not such chimeric things (as 'tastini') were used is very much to the point: if we pretend to play period music using instruments and styles familiar to the 'Old Ones' and what their audiences might have expected and heard, then we ought not impose tuning (fretting) systems which have no historic justification. << Galiliei disliking tastini shows there were about. But, fine, skip the tastini, as I said, you can do without. Double frets like viols have, some advocate these for lutes on historical grounds, are another option, as you can split them, like viol players do. Whatever you do, you must play in tune with the organ &c. You're not going to if you stick with ET. Common sense to me as it must have been to players and audiences alike in the 17th century. What is your altenative? David - played very much out of tune with a 19th century pianoforte (in the Finchcocks piano museum in Engleand, last month), that was tuned in something Orwellian with some fifths more equal than others. There was no way my fixed-fretted 19th century guitar was going to match that. Horrible f-minor chords with clashing a-flats, especially. This led us to the speculation that our obsession with playing in tune might be a modern one, making this whole discusion a moot one. ;-) **************************** David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl **************************** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --------------------------------- Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now. --
