Yes you are right I did not crank my F up high enough. Definitely an improvement over ET and balances with organ.
At 02:38 PM 11/13/2007, you wrote: >>A, and we have a nice G chord, a nice D chord and an OK A chord >>Assuming the A chord is barred, and we don't use the fourth course, > >?? > >F = 14 >A = 0 >Fourth course open = 14 >Fret 4 = -14 gives A = 0 > >G = 7 >A = 0 >First course open = 7 >Fret 2 = -7 gives A = 0 > >Then A on fourth course is in tune with A on first course. Am I >missing something? > >David > > >**************************** >David van Ooijen >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >www.davidvanooijen.nl >**************************** > > > >>we will avoid the out of tune octaves, Not ideal for full chords but >>perfectly playable, and more in tune than ET. More importantly, it >>will clash less with the organ. By the way, they seemed to like the >>clash of temperaments. Go figure. >> >>The picture is good as well in A tuning, where we are looking >>essentially at F G C on the chart instead of G A D >>Here the open A is two high for F major, but the second fret gives a >>slightly lower one. >> >>Perhaps is not meantone in the the strict sense because the octaves >>can be out of tune--particularly in the F chord, but for me, the >>bergamasca works OK. In the C chord the fifth is too flat but that is >>easy to pull up a few cents by pulling the string sideways, something >>I do all the time (mostly between E and B). >>On the keyboard, the octaves are NOT out of tune, but there is a bit >>of a trade off. >> >>As far as I can see, this first set works OK. >> >>On to the lament. >>Assuming a basic harmony of a minor, e minor (sometimes G) D minor (7 >>suspended over F) and E major, >>we see that the A minor with a bar chord (again, leaving out any out >>of tune octaves on the A) and E minor are workable. >>D minor can be played with the open A to yield a better fifth, and >>the minor third is nicely high. >>Then the crunch--E major--the workaround here is to use the sixth >>fret only, or a fretlet, either of which work >> >>As far as I can see, this second set works OK. >> >>Which means La Follia works too, even adding G minor. >>Can't wait to try it. >> >> >>dt >> >> >> >> >>At 02:31 AM 11/13/2007, you wrote: >>>Dear Martyn >>> >>>We seem to be talking about almost the same thing. There's a Dutch >>>saying I cannot quite translate that goes something like: >>>communicating is talking as closely as possible about the same >>>thing, meaning you don't talk about the same thing at all. Human >>>contact is difficult, each man his own universe in his own head, how >>>will we ever make contact? >>> >>>>> I'm afraid you don't appear to grasp the essentials >>><< >>> >>>I'm sure your theory is better. When you talked about modulation I >>>assumed you meant a change of key, or tonal centre, within one >>>piece. Starting in a-minor, after five bars you find yourself >>>playing in C-major, cadenses and all. If you'd agree that an >>>MT-tuned organ can play these modulations, and if you'd agree that >>>the lute's notes matches those of the organ, you'd agree the lute >>>can play the modulation. But it appears I've lost you one step >>>before, as you don't seem to agree the lute can match the organ note >>>by note. Because of the straight frets: >>> >>>the semitone fret intervals on each string do not follow precisely >>>the same sequence of diatonic and chromatic intervals as you move up >>>the fingerboard >>><< >>> >>> >>>No, you're right, a lute with straight frets is not as perfect as an >>>organ, but it isn't quite bad either. My simple look on things is >>>purely practical. If meantone is used by other instruments, how do I >>>tune my lute to match these? >>>Let's assume 1/4 comma MT, deviations from ET in cents: >>> >>>Eb = 21 >>>Bb = 17 >>>F = 14 >>>C = 10 >>>G = 7 >>>D = 3 >>>A = 0 >>>E = -3 >>>B = -7 >>>F# = -10 >>>C# = -14 >>>G# = -17 >>>D# = -21 >>> >>>Lute in g' >>>Fret = note = cents deviation >>> >>>First course: >>>0 = G = 7 >>>1 = G# = -24 >>>2 = A = -7 >>>3 = Bb = 10 >>>4 = B = -14 >>>5 = C = 3 >>> >>>Second course: >>>0 = D = 3 >>>1 = Eb = 18 >>>2 = E = -6 >>>3 = F = 11 >>>4 = F# = -13 >>>5 = G = 4 >>> >>>Third course: >>>0 = A = 0 >>>1 = Bb = 17 >>>2 = B = -7 >>>3 = C = 10 >>>4 = C# = -14 >>>5 = D = 3 >>> >>>Fourth course: >>>0 = F = 14 >>>1 = F# = -24 >>>2 = G = -7 >>>3 = G# = -31 >>>4 = A = -14 >>>5 = Bb = 3 >>> >>>Fifth course: >>>0 = C = 10 >>>1 = C# = -24 >>>2 = D = -7 >>>3 = Eb = 11 >>>4 = E = -13 >>>5 = F = 4 >>> >>>This gives the following ideal fret positions on all five courses: >>> >>>First fret: -24, 18, 17, -24, -24 >>>Two positions: high is in agreement, low equally so. >>> >>>Second fret: -7, -6, -7, -7, -7 >>>Perfect enough for me. >>> >>>Third fret: 10, 11, 10, -31, 11 >>>Ouch for the G# on the fourth course. Perfect Ab, but otherwise a >>>note to avoid. The high fret positions are in agreement, though. >>> >>>Fourth fret: -14, -13, -14, -14, -13 >>>Perfect enough for me. >>> >>>Fifth fret: 3, 4, 3, 3, 4 >>>Perfect enough for me. >>> >>> >>>Not too many typos, I hope, however, the math is simple enough to >>>correct these yourself. Calculating with more decimals will make the >>>figures agree more in theory, by the way, but is nonsense in >>>practice. Other varieties of meantone (1/6, 1/7, 1/8 comma) will >>>give less extreme fret positions, and might make the g# on the >>>fourth course acceptable, depending on your ears (or ensemble). This >>>leaves us with the problematic first fret. I, and others, have found >>>different practical ways of living with that, let it rest for now. >>>Fretting from 6th fret repeats basically what is done in the first five. >>> >>>I think I have shown it is possible to tune a lute in meantone to >>>match all the notes on the organ, with the practical problems of g# >>>on fourth course and first fret to be solved in a practical way >>>(tastini, split fret or avoidance of wrong notes. Been there, done >>>that, it works). >>> >>>I have no idea about historical evidence for this, but I would >>>assume that a lutenist of old, faced with an organ in meantone, >>>would come up with something similar to make his life workable. I >>>see modern viol, violone and lute players move their frets all the >>>time to match the organ, I see no reason why that would have been >>>different in olden times. I know that is not evidence, but >>>musicians' ears and their desires to solve problems cannot have >>>changed that much. >>> >>>Additionally, I find, when tuned in meantone, a part of the lute and >>>notably theorbo solo repertoire to work very well. That's my liking >>>only, perhaps, but would a lutenist of old change his frets and >>>retune for his solo pieces, if these can be played with the frets in >>>ensemble setup? Purely speculation, no historical evidence, take it >>>or leave it, but do try it. >>> >>>David >>> >>>To Roman: last count was closer to 30 than 20, but I'm sure not >>>nearly as many as POD's, whose solo cds are perhaps the only ones >>>you've counted. Mine are all ensemble of some sort or other. No big >>>deal, then. Furthermore, quality is more important than quantity; >>>only for my late mother was I world-famous, for the rest of the >>>world I'm just another plucker trying to scrape together an income >>>from music. Not famous then, please. >>> >>> >>>**************************** >>>David van Ooijen >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>www.davidvanooijen.nl >>>**************************** >>> >>> >>> >>>To get on or off this list see list information at >>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > >
